smidey Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Can anyone give me any info regarding these? http://www.trademe.co.nz/Home-living/Pe ... 512560.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 See this thread a little way down this page.. http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/proble ... 34284.html To summise the firebirds were imported as Peacock Rubescenes/Firebird so Al. Rubescenes would be more likely to be what they are.. Could be some confusion though and with a photo off the net not of actual fish and confusion with names I would be concerned.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropheus Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Hi I wouldnt trust the seller. Ive asked twice now for pics of this OWN male and female (not from the net) but this hasnt happen. So buyer beware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new zealand discus man Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Hi i have seen the male as a flash..Orangeeeeeeeeeeee redishhhhhhhhh Let ya all know later because i have 20 now at 3cm..My pick is Rubescences and i liked the colours i saw...Phill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 All well and good seeing the male was it a rubins or a baenshi? The main concern as always with peacocks is the females.. Where did the females come from? Did this guy buy a random Rubin male and think it was a baenshi and buy a baenshi female? Best bet is always straight from importers or from descent breeders if you want to get descent fish.. I think most people who want descent fish would probably stay away its not really worth the risk when other people who know what they're doing are breeding the Rubins.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropheus Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 My thoughts as well Ryan. Guess some fish keepers try and keep the breeds pure and some just guess and pick a name. Well i guess because its orange/red in must be Rubins. Lets breed millions and sell at a guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 All in all it just makes us all look like a bunch of Amateurs. Self described 'serious' breeders buying fish off public auction with little or know determination of a positive ID. This from one who contiually uses sayings like NZ's best. Todays TM listing has A.sp Jacobfriebergi "lemon Jake" . This common name is also a varietal/location designation, and now that name has been adopted for no more than one upmanship as far as I can see. Q. Were Lemon Jake variety brought in or were they Jacobfriebergi that matched an internet image hence the ball starts rolling? It seems the thrill of the sale has got to some heads. Q. In my female peacock tank my a young Maleri male has knocked up a a Baenschi girl, as happens in this tank. No spawn in this tank is usually allowed to continue. But as they are both pretty peacocks and their young should be lovely yellowy gold is it then OK to call them "SUNBIRD". What a cool name- I should sell heaps, and I even know the background of the parents so OK? Should I comment on the names given to some recent imported plecs by the importer here- If it wasn't so laughable it would be shameful. What is worse these fish will be sent out soon under these "takeaguess' names and retailers will be asking a couple of hundred dollars for completely random fish. I note Mr pleco has just discovered his "starlight bn's" which he has diligently bred weren't exactly that. But he bought a designated fish and should expect to end up with that fish not one that comes in with the broad "Ancistrus" title to be then called whatever under the guise of marketing. A few people will shortly be thinking they are going to get L134 leopard frog mouth pleco as they are on retail list when really it's a yet to be determined fish. Will the importer take the fish back? this hasn't been policy to date. There seems to be no rigid safeguards in terms of ID's which can mean all sorts of fish can end up here. Amatuer breeders- We do our best but I can't believe that with all the hooplah around bio-security and MAF , that importer/wholesalers and pro breeders are willing to be so slapdash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afrikan Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Couldn't agree more with the above post.... 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new zealand discus man Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/a ... ibergi.php Think you are getting lost about different types..lemon jake is listed above..There are hundreds of malawi's we will most likely never see so im happy to have what i can at present... To Firebird..Just a name any way but dont change what the fish actually is..Im also happy to wait and see them colour in a few months..Then i will make my mind up as to id..If not happy then i can submit photo's to over sea's to get views...Remember ....Most fish arrive as small often un-coloured and of same batch and also means they are highly im-breed now..But also family back round can also be ?...Even before they get here... I have some jocob...that are just about black and what i thought were females may very well be males of ??? But still jacobfreibergi Cheers Phill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/a_jacobfreibergi.php Think you are getting lost about different types..lemon jake is listed above..There are hundreds of malawi's we will most likely never see so im happy to have what i can at present... To Firebird..Just a name any way but dont change what the fish actually is..Im also happy to wait and see them colour in a few months..Then i will make my mind up as to id..If not happy then i can submit photo's to over sea's to get views...Remember ....Most fish arrive as small often un-coloured and of same batch and also means they are highly im-breed now..But also family back round can also be ?...Even before they get here... I have some jocob...that are just about black and what i thought were females may very well be males of ??? But still jacobfreibergi Cheers Phill Again we must disagree Phil. Your Shakespearean view on the importance of a name would to me be as outdated as much of the language used in that famous piece of prose. ie. these roses don't smell that great. Sure Firebird is just a name. But it is a common name used in the U.S.A for Aulononcara Sp. Hansbaenchi/Red shoulder, whilst you can find it as the common name for Jacobfriebergi in Australia. Now because of probably only one's person's decision when imported or distributed, that name has become a common name for a fish here that already has several- Ruby red, Rubins, Rubescens. How can that not be : A. confusing now B. a potential hazard in terms of hybridisation down the track. Are you saying you will happily Try to ID these fish down the track, going to overseas sources for that info. Using what name Phil?- firebird or ? Surely the location source of your answer will detrermine your answer. And if your answer is negative will you then just change the name, as it isn't that important if we go by your statement above. As for the Jacob- did you read the first paragraph of the link you posted. It sates clearly that Lemon jake is variant and should not be mixed with others. Once again a common name has been appropriated after the fish has arrived. Here is list from same site. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/r ... p?genus=17 11 types of Jacobfriebergi including varietal and line bred. Yet only one is lemon jake, and because of someone's enthusiasm/ignorance all jacobs here are called something that in all probability they are not. "Close, but no cigar". I would suggest there are two if not more colour variations of Baenschi going around as well. I agree with you determination that there is a lot of chance for mixing or hybridising at import/quarantine time, or that the overall quality of imported fish is well below that of other nations, particularly in the rarifed air of F0 or F1 stock. But is that an excuse for not doing the best we can with the stocks we get. Lost? _ I may well be, or perhaps I'm just on a path unfimiliar to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Thanks christ I'm only really interested in new world cichlids... :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 LOL at David. You mean like flower horns or Parrot cichlids? :lol: Nav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Well said firenzenz.. I agree that the problems do start with the overseas exporters/breeders and also our wholesalers when they make up these stupid names, I was under the assumption that all fish imported into NZ had to be imported under a sc. name? What happened to these names? End of the day they will import them because they sell and where else are we to get new fish from? Those fish maybe dodgy they may not be, to me its not worth the risk, and I would assume anyone buying them to breed and sell would be the same way. Maybe the current price of $2 a fish is part of the parcel? The potential to buy them make up a name and breed them with no concern and make money is there for a commercial operator.. You can find pretty much any common name associated with any fish if you use google image and this again just leads people astray.. I could start up a site today and post photo's of my guppies and call them firebird peacocks it doesn't mean they are? But someone somewhere may see that and use that id.. Some people think that this is all coming on a bit strong and a bit serious but there is a very real threat of loosing these fish.. We might loose alot of these fish in the wild the last thing we want is to loose them in our tanks as well.. If imports stop to NZ all together do we have enough to keep our species going we have had alot in NZ that has died out will this happen? Will we get a mix (like when you mix all the paint colours together and always get brown) of crappy hybrids.. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/c ... n_list.php http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/p ... malawi.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simian Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 LOL at David. You mean like flower horns or Parrot cichlids? :lol: Nav not sure what you mean Navarre, there will always be purists who belive that hybrids are wrong, but a flowerhorn is a flowerhorn and bloody hard to pass off as anything else, ditto to parrots. I believe that what David had in mind is that New Worlds dont run the same level of risk of hybridisation and or mis identification. BTW Im with you on this David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new zealand discus man Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/imports/ ... ic.all.htm Check out whats on it.. FEW...All others here are here because when small they cannot be id so in past years importers got all you see today.. See Aulonocara..Just one legal...All the rest are not allow to be imported because the second name is different..Put that name and.... Aulonocara nyassae ...Now go seach it...Google it Then the fun really starts..So the message is..Its up to each on what you keep and breed but dont forget..This will give all a headache... Whats here now are most likely x breed anyway..By that i mean go to a pet store and see all mixed up and yes we buy them..But another spanner in works is not all females are the same looking..I keep each type in own tank and when sold its out of all control what happens then.. Phill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 I wasnt taking a joke here. Just that some exporters get Flowerhorns into NZ by calling them Severums...which they used to be...lol As for Aulonocara nyassae. There is a school of thought and lots of research that all Aulonocara are Nyassae and that everything else is a sub specie. Therefore even tho there is only 1 Aulo on the list it means with the right research in your hands you could bring in any Hapilchrome or Aulo sub speice. Which means that even tho its called one thing it could be several diferent things. I am Not disagreeing with firenzenz. Agree wth that 100%. Problem is for someone who is new and has 7-8 Aulanocara sp. How do I know they are what they are. I can only sell/breed/keep them as what they were sold to me as. So if you sell me a Firebird Guppy then thats what I have. The problem is when I sell that as Guppius Firebirdiiusiibergiusiiusii. Comes back to the fact that NZ has a double import standard and as keepers thats what we have. Dont agree with that either but thats how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Yeah thats what I was getting at Simian. Although I am concerned of where the hobby is going with peoples attitudes towards breeding and selling to try to make a buck. Its more than just names too, selling every last fry with no regards to 'natural selection', inbreeding, breeding from low quality stock etc. I'm sure there will always be people who put producing the highest quality correctly named stock above quantity, and hopefully there's enough genuine hobbyists (not just fish-havers) willing to pay good money for these good fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 I wasnt taking a joke here. Just that some exporters get Flowerhorns into NZ by calling them Severums...which they used to be...lol Flowerhorns are a mix of a trimac and red terror IIRC, parrots are part severum though so maybe thats what you're thinking of? Problem is for someone who is new and has 7-8 Aulanocara sp. How do I know they are what they are. I can only sell/breed/keep them as what they were sold to me as. So if you sell me a Firebird Guppy then thats what I have. IMO Thats is the difference between a fish-haver and fish-keeper. A fish-haver would take someones word for it, a fish-keeper would do the research and learn for themselves. With the internet there is hardly any excuse for not knowing stuff, there's plenty of knowledgeable people willing to help people learn and there is more information than you could cram into a hundred books available at your fingertips. IMO its starts with us, the hobbyists. When people still call G. altifrons "surinamensis" just because thats what the shops call it and thats what everyone knows it as then we are really doing ourselves a disservice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/imports/animals/standards/fisornic.all.htm Check out whats on it.. FEW...All others here are here because when small they cannot be id so in past years importers got all you see today.. See Aulonocara..Just one legal...All the rest are not allow to be imported because the second name is different..Put that name and.... Aulonocara nyassae ...Now go seach it...Google it Then the fun really starts..So the message is..Its up to each on what you keep and breed but dont forget..This will give all a headache... Whats here now are most likely x breed anyway..By that i mean go to a pet store and see all mixed up and yes we buy them..But another spanner in works is not all females are the same looking..I keep each type in own tank and when sold its out of all control what happens then.. Phill You are the walking advertisement of my argument. Yes google- go for your life. but don't come back with half bake information. Don't google and take the first thing you read as gospel. Real reasearch would have lead to the origin of the term Nyaasae. It is derived from the pre Independence name for malawi and the name of the lake before it changed to lake Malawi and was still under Portuguese authority So a revised desription could well be Aulonocara Sp. Malawi- which would include all and every peacock species in lake Malawi. Go on google again, this time 'nyassae' or 'nyassa' under google images and tell me what you see. It won't be one species shown but many all under the broad umbrella of Nyassae/Malawi grouping. So If I go by google, and spurn common sense then I can interbreed without a problem? There is a A.sp Nyassae but it isn't even a species that is widespread or known through the hobby The net is indeed a wonderful tool that like all tools requires a semblance of skill and knowlege to ensure it doesn't trip you up. This is why non-scientific names used incorrectly and without discretion will lead to a situation descibed earlier by Ryan. Any other argument as I can see is just a justification for being 'lazy' in this respect. An argument based on an overview of what used to happen does nothing to ensure the quality of future stock. This is now! I believe the 'curve' of people wanting the best and most pure variants of any fish here is exponential and that is where I intend to hitch my wagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 the quality of the horses pulling the wagon will determine if you get to your goal or just part way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Nay! to that Sorry Lame post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new zealand discus man Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Aulonocara Sp.. Thats what used to be legal but not longer and that was my point... The name on MAF list is just Aulonocara Nyassae..Not legal to import any other now just because its the same group.. Going back many years ago there was just Pseudotropeus and no other latin names.. So called expects now have broken in to many groups and by the way..Australia last time i looked cannot import from Africa or South America..Full Stop...Thats why they dont say to much as there stocks a far worse than ours... Also to true lines..Most likely here there are very few because it will take one possibly 5 years of line breeding to see if stays true or x come creeping in........But at the end of the day...Ill know about where this started with about FireBird Peacocks..True Line or X............Phill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new zealand discus man Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Yeah thats what I was getting at Simian. Although I am concerned of where the hobby is going with peoples attitudes towards breeding and selling to try to make a buck. Its more than just names too, selling every last fry with no regards to 'natural selection', inbreeding, breeding from low quality stock etc. I'm sure there will always be people who put producing the highest quality correctly named stock above quantity, and hopefully there's enough genuine hobbyists (not just fish-havers) willing to pay good money for these good fish. With out Business making Yes a Quick Buck there would be no Hobby..At All. With out Importers being profitable there also would be no Pet Stores selling Fish at all.. As most have found out its extremely hard even to break even breeding ..Yes also in a large way.. Yes Smell the roses long enough and you will come up roses...Phill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 With out Business making Yes a Quick Buck there would be no Hobby..At All. With out Importers being profitable there also would be no Pet Stores selling Fish at all.. As most have found out its extremely hard even to break even breeding ..Yes also in a large way.. Yes Smell the roses long enough and you will come up roses...Phill Phil, I work in the plant-equivelant of a specialist fish importer/breeder, so I know all too well what you're trying to say. We're on the brink of bankruptcy because there aren't enough people willing to pay money for quality, correctly identified and well grown plants. My comments were not aimed at the importers and specialist stores (who incidentally, I encourage anyone to support) but at the small-time and even accidental breeders. People who aren't relying on it to put food on the table, yet try to sell every last fry produced, and just breed from any two random fish bought from the fish shop, which are probably brother and sister. If you're going to breed fish as a hobby then your focus should be on quality not quantity and dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 If the MAF list is an arse and is outdated in terms species descriptions and new updated names, then thats a Govt dept not doing it's job, not an invitation to use their shoddy business practise as a role model. points full of "Most likely's" and 'possibly's'. It's called stating a fact based on opinion, and it don't work anymore!! The whole point seems to be about a bunch of dubious fish and rights to ommit quality or consistency from the equation. There is a choice- and while a price oriented product has it's place, the business model behind should be more than just a continuation of a mindset that are not as prevailent as once they were. Look at the difference in Discus in the last 5 yrs. The googling tool we use for rearch is the same thing most people use to upskill in this hobby. Will it take the consumer to change bad habits. Or will names just be altered again to serve that purpose. There is a place in the market for both philosophies, there is no argument there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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