Fatman Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 I have a female guppie that had fry, when i saw this I moved her to another tank ( smaller tank ) by herself where she had another 10 or so, BUT my question is,, since the fry that were from the first birth process are colored and from the second , (in the smaller tank ) are completly without color, Have they been seperated into male first then female second, or colored and non colored by the female, or would it be the change of tanks that would have made a difference to the outcome of color vs non color. The fry are now 2 weeks old rgds The fatest guy in town Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 Hi Terry... Cool logo As far as I remember, once a female guppy is fertilized, or even been in a tank with a male, and even for the first time, the dominant genes of the active male can be passed on through several broods. This is why it is so important to segregate the males from the females at the earliest point in time before they become sexually active if you want to breed in, or breed out, a certain characteristic, like a high fin, or a distinctive colour. Black is ALWAYS dominant in the colour range, and is the hardest to erradicate, and also hard to achieve in fish that normally have no black in them at all. Don't assume that because they have no colour that they are all females, although some females are almost as colourful as the males in some variations. It is not unknown for female guppies (and various livebearers) to change sex if no males are available The female certainly won't sort the boys from the girls, they all TASTE the same to her The first brood you got are now possibly old enough to start getting colours, and your ten others may colour up later. Examine them very carefully for the gonopodium starting to take shape if you want to sex them early. Changing tanks to stop the males fertilizing them will make no difference, because of the above, (eg, Once he's been there it's a bit late) and even if a female is "dried out" she may still produce throwbacks from some earlier impregnation. This occurs with most livebearers, and to produce a new strain or variety can take years until the strain breeds true, but many aquarists do it otherwise we wouldn't have some of the wonderful variations we have today, so it is not a lost cause, and well worth attempting. Hope I've got my facts right, and hope this helps. We really need someone who has done a session of line breeding to give us some pointers. I did a bit in my early years, mostly with livebearers and Angels and got some very acceptable results, but you have to be ruthless and remove anything that does not hold a dominant factor that you are aiming for, and you ALWAYS start off with "True Virgin Fish" both male and female, which is not always imperrative in the egglayers. Guppies are an excellent fish to start a new strain as you get fairly early results. They say that if a single pair of guppies started to breed, and they had young, and that brood had young, and the next brood had young and so on, and if no fish were eaten or died, then that same single pair could, with all the offspring producing as well, produce three million offspring in a single year. Geez... This was just going to be a short post. Got carried away somewhat :oops: Happy days. :) Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 Guppies aren't called the millions fish for nothing! A female guppy can produce 3 different lots of fry after impregnation as she can store the sperm for a long time after being separated from the male. She can also produce different fry from different males (females have always been good at multi-tasking ) I think Pegasus covered all the most likely reasons for the colouration (or lack of it) and it is probably the age difference between the two batches and different fathers. Guppies start reproducing at a very young age so it is important to separate the sexes as fast as you can. Sexing small, colourless fry can be very difficult! Do you know how to sex them? Do you know what a gonopodium is? It is the guppy version of a penis so look for fry with that extra bit poking out underneath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 Now now Caryl.... Behave yourself Just jumping up the ladder a couple of rungs. The Mollies, Platies, and Swordtails are also quite easy to start a selective breeding program with, but also one that you can create problems with if you are not careful. By this I mean that you can create fish that are weak, or have some other form of weakness in their character, be it colours, or some other deformity, so you have to cull all the unwanted characters of the fish before they are alowed to contaminate the work you are doing, and you need to keep strict records of your procedures. Just re-read my post :oops: and you ALWAYS start off with "True Virgin Fish" both male and female, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajbroome Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 Caryl said... > I think Pegasus covered all the most likely reasons for the > colouration (or lack of it) and it is probably the age difference > between the two batches and different fathers. Without seeing them it's hard to be sure but I wouldn't be suprised to find that one batch were kept in a much lighter tank than the other. Bright tanks with pale backgrounds can affect the amount of colour a fish shows. This is one reason a lot of show tanks are painted black on the back and sides and use a dark substrate. Just my thoughts. Andrew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter McLeod Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 I have a female guppie that had fry, when i saw this I moved her to another tank ( smaller tank ) by herself where she had another 10 or so, BUT my question is,, since the fry that were from the first birth process are colored and from the second , (in the smaller tank ) are completly without color, Have they been seperated into male first then female second, or colored and non colored by the female, or would it be the change of tanks that would have made a difference to the outcome of color vs non color. The fry are now 2 weeks old rgds The fatest guy in town Terry Cees lensink would be a good person to ask about breeding guppies.I have done a bit of breeding of guppies and found Half Black guppies the easiest guppies to work with because H/B is a dominant gene. Separate your female guppies as soon as you see their gravid spot appearing at about 3-5 weeks depending on temperature in your tank and the genetics of your fish.When the females are 3-4 months of age you can either use one of their brothers if they develope what you are looking for or buy a young male with the characteristics you want in your guppies.It is important he is young because you want to make as many crosses with him as posible, mate him to your females choose the best 3-4 females and mate him to his daughters and even his grand daughters if posible, this will help to consolodate the genes and help to fix the strain you are breeding.When you loose your male all you can do is choose the best male and breed him to his sisters and so on.If you go through a generation about every four months it shouldn't take long to see some results. Provided your male isn't sterile some of the fry from resulting drops should be his even though the female has already been mated, this could backfire on you though and I would sugest using the young virgin females you already have, you probably won't see much improvement in the first generation but they will get better with patients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cees Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 Cees lensink would be a good person to ask about breeding guppies.I have done a bit of breeding of guppies and found Half Black guppies the easiest guppies to work with because H/B is a dominant gene. What makes you think I'm an expert. Ok Ok, I'll try to be 'more active' in this forum Peter. Yes, H/B guppies would good to work with. There are 2 types as far as I can tell. Both male/female halfblack or only male H/B with no black on female. There is an aweful lot of info out there on the web about this. Hopefully soon (heard that before) we will have guppies.fnzas.org.nz or something like that where Peter and I will compile lots of material about guppies (won't we Peter) Still doesn't answer Fatman's question though. Not sure if I understand question correctly. You moved the female during the process of producing the fry or did she produce 10 more after about 30 days of the 1st lot? I suspect the latter because you mention the color differnece. Quite possible, contact with another male. Peter, my fish are doing fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatman Posted June 19, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 Greetings all Cess > the female was moved to the other tank about 5 - 10 hours after noticing the fry so the time between each batch of fry would be about 12 - 24 hrs apart. Once again has given me more information than I could have hoped for, it is great to see that you putup with the silly questions of a newbee in the fish world If you keep inbreeding fish, mother to son etc, does that not increase the mortality rate or the disfigurement of fish due to this inbreeding ? Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 Hi Terry, First of all, you are not asking "Silly" questions. These are questions that create posts and bring together a host of people that know something about the subject, which after all, is what this and other forums are all about. Newbee or not (I prefer New comer) we all want and need to learn, so keep on posting those questions Terry, no matter how insignificant you think they are. Regarding your question, It's a long time since I delved into that territory, but if you read Peter's post and the others above, they pretty much explain the principles of how it all works, especially Peters. You have "Fired up" Cee's interests, so perhaps we may get lots more interesting post I have some old notes somewhere that I must dig up Just a word of caution. Many that undertake line breeding are prepared to not only devote the time, but the space needed to keep the sexes apart. I think I might have had around fifty tanks (just for the offspring, and it was never enough) when I was in full swing. They were only 5 to 10 gall each, but non the less took space and heating, plus filtration. Don't give up Terry. If you have an ambition then read all you can and make it happen. Best of luck. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatman Posted June 19, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 My wife loved the guppies, looks like we have bitten of more then we can chew we didnt realise that we had purchased a pregnant female untill two weeks later, looks like i will be busy making more tanks as I already have planes for my fishroom in the garage, ( 4 car , so i should have enough room for a couple of years or so ), at lest it will keep me busy untill my clown loaches are large enough to breed :roll: Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 Hi Terry, Don't know if you have read this or not, but this article may be of interest to you. It is in my opinion a cheaper way to go, especially if you just want small tanks and can use window or greenhouse glass. If you need help on this either post or email me. http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewtopic.php?t=82 Not sure if the Clowns have been bred in captivity, but I'm sure someone will clarify. Just a small edit. If a guppy, or livebearer is pregnant, you can usually tell by the "Gravid Spot" which is around the vent region. On guppies the female will become more rounded, and the "gravid spot" usually gets darker the closer she gets to her moment when she will drop the young. Many aquarists can tell you within an hour when they will drop, but even if she is on the point of bursting she may not drop if she is stressed, or something doesn't suit her. Happy Days Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatman Posted June 19, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 I an use Acrylic from work, we supply and sell the stuff in sheets, i can get the offcuts No clowns have not been breed sucessfully, i have been doing a bit of reading and will try a few experements base'd on what i have read, ill be making a large tank in its own room and try to duplicate the natural envyroment (sp, its late ) as closely as i can Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter McLeod Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 I an use Acrylic from work, we supply and sell the stuff in sheets, i can get the offcuts No clowns have not been breed sucessfully, i have been doing a bit of reading and will try a few experements base'd on what i have read, ill be making a large tank in its own room and try to duplicate the natural envyroment (sp, its late ) as closely as i can Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cees Posted June 19, 2002 Report Share Posted June 19, 2002 Greetings all If you keep inbreeding fish, mother to son etc, does that not increase the mortality rate or the disfigurement of fish due to this inbreeding ? Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted June 20, 2002 Report Share Posted June 20, 2002 Great informative posts you guys, and just what we all want to see, and I just love this saying :) 'when you pass the tank from left to right you toss in some food and when you pass from right to left you do a water change' Happy Days for all :) Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatman Posted June 23, 2002 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2002 Thanks for all of the information, every bit is valuable to me and it all has been noted for future use by my wife and I, Thanks all Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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