under gravel filters

[fins]

Hey

Im sick of have dirty gravel in my 288 litre tank and am looking at getting a under gravel filter. Does anyone know how to make one to custom measurements as I have seen UGFs in shops but they around $40 and wont fill the whole bottom of my tank. Also would you recomment using air pumps or power heads to lift the water?

thanks

[Ira]

An undergravel filter will just make it worse. It'll suck all the crap into the gravel. If you want clean gravel, use a gravel vacuum every week when you do your water changes.

[tamboe2001]

dont know how to build one but powerhead would make them more efficient ive also heard of using reverse motion powerheads to pump the water through the gravelform under the filter apparerntly works better

[Wazza]

Hi fins

I wish now that I didn't put in UG filter as a heap on muck forms under the plates. What I did do was put a couple of hoses in and connected them to a small pump and each water change I pump out the muck, or as much as i can.

[Alan]

SO??

What's the matter with a pile of "muck" under the plate?

Is it affecting anything? Not!

It isn't in the gravel, the gravel is doing it's thing.

If from the start of setting the tank up, with your gravel vaccuming,

did you also put the syphon over the air-lift?

I think not if there is a "pile" of gunk under it.

With syphoning up the airlift tube, it increases the water flow,

picks up the precipitate, and cleans out underneath.

Just a matter of education me thinks.

Alan

[Caryl]

You are supposed to get muck under an UGF. Use a siphon to clean your gravel when you do water changes - whether you have an UGF or not.

[chimera]

depends how much muck. you need to clean them out every 6 months - 1 year depending on stocking levels. you should have SOME muck there though - that is the nitrifying bacteria that breaks down the crap in your water.

[Alan]

Nope on that one Chim, most of the n/b is in the gravel, or the part that actually is held by the filter plate.

Also disagree with your statement on a strip clean too.

Well balanced tanks don't need to be stripped at all.

Just regular maintenance.

Alan

[chimera]

hmmm, still disagree with you Alan. yes, the undergravel filter itself is what the bacteria grows on. it is highly likely that you will need to clean out the filter one a year unless you are extremely thorough in your maintenance. i guarantee you that 90% of those with ugf's will find a build up of gunk (dead roots from plants etc) that the undergravel filter just cannot keep up with.

[Pegasus]

i guarantee you that 90% of those with ugf's will find a build up of gunk (dead roots from plants etc) that the undergravel filter just cannot keep up with.

What an utter load of rubbish.

The old old argument about UGF's.

Look... They were designed over fifty years ago, and the design has changed little over the past 40 years to my knowledge, apart from adding these stupid tiny carbon boxes on the outputs that are just something else to charge for... but do nothing after the first week.

Did they get it wrong..??

Are they being recalled...?

Are these 90% a fiction of your imagination...? (yes)

Why do most Shops use them... Zoos... Marine fish keepers... and MILLIONS of aquarists throughout the world.... Are these people in the 90%...?

TALK FACT Chimera.... Not fantasy, or post opinions of the few unsatifieds, without having "fully" test drove the thing yourself.. which seems to be the case..

EXAMPLE:

They fit the UGF.

A week/month later they look under the tank.. (when possible)

They see all the filterings, or become "overconcerned" as they read certain things about UGF's on the forums..

Solution... They rip it out.

Result... Dead fish... Unstable conditions.. Fouled tank.. etc..

Just like anything... these things take time to become established, and the crap is a good sign it is doing its job, and if left undisturbed will do NO harm to either the fish, or the water conditions, provided (like all filters) that it is left running constantly.

I 'personally' have had tanks set up for five years and more and never once had probs with the UGF.

Crap underneath you say.... OF COURSE there's crap underneath, just like there's crap in ANY filter after about a week or so.

Is there crap in your 3 or 400 dollar motorized plastic box that you have hanging on your tank... ?

It's to be hoped so, otherwise it wouldn't be doing its job... and neither would the UGF.

Under 'certain' circumstances, there is 'nothing' that will beat the UGF for ...

Area of filtration.. (the complete base size plus depth of substrate.. amounting to hundreds of square inches of usable filter medium... not just a foam block or a few noodles)

Lack of maintainance needed... How often do you have to service your filter... medium etc...?

Running costs.... ZERO.... What does YOUR filter cost per year...?

Clarity of water... Is your water any purer... cleaner... less harmful than one filtered by a UGF... I don't think so.

Fit it and forget it... No other filter can claim this.

OK... you have a couple of Oscars or similar fish that tend to dig...... Forget the UGF..

OK... You have a nice community tank in the lounge.... Fine... would be ideally suited.

OK... You just want to breed a few species and raise the young...

No real need for a UGF here... just use a sponge filter.

I have said it often on various forums, but...

"I have YET to strip a tank due to UGF failure or blockage"

hmmm, still disagree with you Alan. yes, the undergravel filter itself is what the bacteria grows on

More rubbish... (Sorry... but get your facts correct)

The UGF does NOT hold the growing benificial bacteria.. the SUBSTRATE holds the bacteria... just as the medium in YOUR filter holds the benificial bacteria, otherwise why would you need a filter medium at all...?

Just as your medium takes time to become established, so does the gravel above the filter plate of the UGF, and this is all the UGF really is... A FILTER PLATE that strains the water through the substrate, and in doing so the particles of substrate become coated with benificial bacteria... which is why we should be not heavy handed with the vacuum when cleaning the tank, as this can upset the balance.

The sewage works use a similar principle... and they didn't get it wrong

Please don't return with .."Ah... but you can't grow plants.."

Another myth.. but I won't go there.

[Alan]

Looks like Chim, with Peg an' meself,we rack up over 100 yrs plus experiance here.

I've never had "deadroots" down "there". But when I've had to clean out a tank(shifting it) I've found live roots, getting valuable nutrients for the seeable part of the plants.

Go the u/g's.

Alan

[chimera]

for ch&%^%ts sake, did I once say that UGF's are crap???!!! No, in fact, I think they are excellent and dont understand why people never use them in the first place. If I went back to freshwater, I would most certainly use UGF again. I am basing my "facts" on what I have experienced over the past 7 years, not what is written in books or posted on forums. That is the problem with these forums, they are all down to personal opinion so its each to their own. I have found that I DO get a buildup under the plate after a long period of time. Perhaps you should re-read my post Bill, did I actually say 90% of people dont use them??? NO. I said I believe that you will find a large majority of people will find a buildup of gunk under the filter plate after an extended period of time. This minimises the amount of oxygen flow and reduces or even possibly kills the good bacteria causing it to have a negative effect on water chemistry. Again, only going from personal experience. And I am not saying that "I am right and you are wrong". You are quite correct in your reasoning but before flying off the handle, perhaps read my original post - I NEVER stated UGF's are crap (and in fact agree with you, they are excellent only if you are thorough with water changes and maintenance) and ok, my 2nd point was incorrect so apologies for that - it was what i was lead to believe obviously by an inexperienced lfs employee many years ago.

i'll add IMO to my posts of this nature in the future

[Pegasus]

but before flying off the handle, perhaps read my original post -

I certainly 'did' read your original post...

depends how much muck. you need to clean them out every 6 months - 1 year depending on stocking levels. you should have SOME muck there though - that is the nitrifying bacteria that breaks down the crap in your water.

... along with....

hmmm, still disagree with you Alan. yes, the undergravel filter itself is what the bacteria grows on. it is highly likely that you will need to clean out the filter one a year unless you are extremely thorough in your maintenance. i guarantee you that 90% of those with ugf's will find a build up of gunk (dead roots from plants etc) that the undergravel filter just cannot keep up with.

... which is the reason I answered.. along with Ira's statement..

An undergravel filter will just make it worse.

.. Don't wanna go there... we have enough probs

The point is that people ask a question in the hope of getting an answer, which the poster never got BTW.

Saying the things above would give any user the impression that UGF's are pointless, as they "clog up".. or "Create probs under the plates".. and will need to be 'cleaned out' after 6/12 months... which is incorrect.

On most modern UGF's you can get a standard hose down the uplift. Cut the finger from a rubber glove and cut a small hole at the tip. Slip it onto the hose through the small hole, then onto the UGF uplift so that a seal is created. Start a siphon going...

If the crap is of concern.. (it will do no harm)... then remove it this way.

This minimises the amount of oxygen flow and reduces or even possibly kills the good bacteria causing it to have a negative effect on water chemistry.

Where do you get these facts...?

Two points...

Provided there is a decent flow of water flowing through the gravel and coming out of the riser pipes, then the system is working.

Second point..

The only ways you could 'diminish' the flow of useable oxygen through the gravel is by either switching the UGF off.. (should never be done for extended periods on any filter).. or by pollution... ie:.. overfeeding.... high levels of waste through overstocking or dead plant matter on the substrate... or by killing the bacteria off by some other means... medications etc..

All common sense really, and something that can be avoided.

[Caryl]

To stick my oar in too :lol: I have never had to strip an UGF (like Alan the only time I did so was when moving the tank) and I have had them running 7 or 8 years non stop. Everyone knows I am very lax in my water change and maintenance routines but never had a problem.

As stated before I believe, the best filter for the job depends on which fish you want to keep.

As to the original question - sorry fins, I have never tried to make an UGF so can't help you there. They are so cheap to buy and you can lock them together to cover most of the base. The do not have to fit snugly all round the sides either.

[Ira]

An undergravel filter will just make it worse.

.. Don't wanna go there... we have enough probs

According to his post, the primary reason was because he was tired of cleaning his gravel. Switching to just a UGF would make it so ALL the crap in the tank went into the gravel, none of it would be sucked into a filter. IMO, that would be making it worse. Most of the tanks I've seen with UGFs looked like they used a substrate of mud with a thin layer of gravel at the top.

[doodle]

According to his post, the primary reason was because he was tired of cleaning his gravel. Switching to just a UGF would make it so ALL the crap in the tank went into the gravel, none of it would be sucked into a filter. IMO, that would be making it worse.

Agreed... if you were having problems with dirty gravel. Maybe more regular gravel cleans or maintenence is in need?

In my work 99% of our tanks have UGF, and we have never needed to uplift them for maintence (only when a newbie comes along and lifts them up and gets gravel under them... grr!) They are cost effective and i dont see any major pros/cons as to using them rather than a cannister etc...

Everything requires maintanence, time and effort, no matter what filtration system your using.

But in saying this, most of my tanks at home have internal power filters. So what ever floats ya boat!

[chimera]

ok, so have any of you actually looked under your UGF's? im sure you will be surprised. anyways, my entire point of the post in the first place was to give the poster a different viewpoint. read this - i know its the article that you say "the critics say this and that, but dont believe them" but its worth while knowing other viewpoints and where others stand - otherwise what you have written "is just your opinion". The following article is a fairly neutral (ok, they dislike them but they do push points for and against) UGF:

http://www.bestfish.com/ug.html

Personally, I like them - I just like to know reasons why people dislike them. To quote one paragraph from their excerpt:

"Usually, after a few months of operation, the gravel begins to pack with so much silt and dirt that circulation stops and the bacteria suffocate. Since the filter still appears to be working, water quality deteriorates, usually unnoticed until it is too late. If the tank is medicated or overfed, an even more rapid die-off of the culture may occur. A speedy water change may avert disaster, but this is the sort of headache and frustration we are trying to spare our customers"

Again, it's JUST ANOTHER VIEW POINT. They are not necessarily right or wrong!

[Pegasus]

Not a 'bad' article, but it hardly relates to the 'average' fishkeeper...

As you look around at our 200 aquariums, loaded with 5 to 10 times the usual number of fish per gallon, you will find no UG filters in either freshwater or saltwater

.. who would have (hopefully) more sense than to stock a tank 5/10 times its rating.

Then they say..

When we used UG filters on our saltwater aquariums a few years ago, we often lost an entire tank full of fish overnight when a power head would quit.

BAD MANAGEMENT here... ANY filter should not be switched off for prolonged periods.

The small amount of charcoal in a UG cartridge does very little chemical filtration before becoming saturated and whatever mechanical filtration occurs is actually a threat to the stability of the aquarium (more about this later).

.. As stated earlier..

The risks of UG filters.

If all else is perfect - if the fish are not overfed, if circulation is not hindered, if the tank is not medicated, and if the gravel is cleaned frequently with water changes - success can be achieved using UG filters.

Exactly as mentioned above.

Ira said:

Most of the tanks I've seen with UGFs looked like they used a substrate of mud with a thin layer of gravel at the top.

Obviously these people have probs.

Get them to join up here

[henry]

I have read quite a bit on filtration, but have only ever used an internal power filter (which suits me down to the ground at present, i must say ), and so have never had a tank with an UG filter.

My question is this: are UG filters suitable for planted tanks? I see above several people talk about roots finding their way into filter plates, so some people must plant tanks with UG filters - several articles I have read mention plants no reaching growth potential due to water movement through roots, and disruption due to vacuuming.

What experiences have everyone had with plants and UGs, and are these claims valid?

I await your responses with anticipation! :lol:

Henry

[Caryl]

I have never had trouble growing plants over UGFs. The trick is to make sure you have a decent depth of substrate on top - about 5cm at least.

[chimera]

I almost refrained from submitting anything for fear of being flamed by others!!! However, IMO (IN MY OPINION), UGF's and HEAVILY planted tanks do not mix well - generally, the water movement under the filter plate is too much for the roots to cope with. However, by reducing the water flow under the filter plate to a minimum (not too much that it starves aerobic bacteria) it will be less of a problem. Remember that plants gain nutrients via their roots and leaves. More importantly than the issue of a UGF though is water chemistry, eg: an appropriate level of potassium, magnesium, calcium, CO2 etc is required.

In all honesty, find out for yourself. Each person who submits a reply will have differing opinions...

[Slartibartfast]

Ya gotta love filter debates

I have an eheim with the inbuilt heater, a sacem, 2 aquaclears plus some ice cream, sponge and ugf's

The eheim, really really good can't hear it and it heats the tank.So great for a bedroom if you sleep light but I'm ashamed of how much I paid for it lol

The sacem does an ok job

The aquaclears love them, will keep to seed new tanks plus to help polish the water but not as the main filter

But they all cost way to much to buy and operate. The 2 cannisters are doing one tank, the 2 aquaclears another. The air operated filters are doing six tanks from one air pump and cost next to nothing to buy, these tanks also require less maintainence then the store bought filters. Even though the cannisters only get touched every 2/3 months I still have to change the water vacuum the crap from the substrate with the same frequency as the ugf's plus you have to buy replacement media. So why did I bother getting them??from the propaganda that I read on the net plus listening to the lfs!!! and of course it was a new toy to play with lol but that 800 bucks or so coulda been spent on fish.

I have found that ugf's work for all but the fish that love to dig and those 2 tanks will be converted or new tanks built with filters in the sides of the tank, stuffed with dacron or some other cheap medium so they too can run off air. Oh and I had a 250l tank with powerheads connected to a ugf I tossed the powerheads and am very happy running it from the air pump. The only difference I have found is if you get lax with your water changes/maintainence routine the water quality is better with the cannisters. That said I haven't lost a fish due to poor water quality for a couple of years :oops:

And I haven't noticed any difference with plant growth I kill them just as fast either way :roll:

[Slartibartfast]

Oh Fins if you are still interested in making your own have a look at,

http://www.sydneycichlid.com/diyugf.html

http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/filter ... diyugf.htm

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/grumpy ... rofilt.htm

should give you an idea

[Ira]

Haha, You don't have to replace the media. Not more than every few years, anyway.

[Slartibartfast]

Did I miss something? Don't think I stated frequency of replacement of media But if you do as the eheim manual says

The fine filter pad (white) serves as mechanical fine filtration and should only be used once, since adhering dirt particles cannot be washed out completely. Use new pad, order no. 2616225! The blue filter pad(1x include in set, order no. 2616220) can be used up to 2 - 3 times.Rinse thoroughly before using.

Me think someone new to the hobby would follow the manual rather closely :roll: