alanmin4304 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 My point was that if it controls (as claimed) gram positive and gram negative bacteria then it controls (by whatever means) all bacteria including the good ones in the filter. My other point was that although toxic many of these things have been used to control pathogens in humans. In the end as Ron said you use what works for you. I would agree that Furan is very good but because it is expensive the temptation is to treat the fish seperately then put it back into a contaminated tank or to only treat once rather than four times as advised. If that is the case in my view it would be better to use something cheaper and use it properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Discusguru Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 It all depends what fish you're treating. Example- If the fish is expensive, then the cost of Furan2 is cheap compares to the fish. But if the fish is cheap like neon, guppy, platy.... then I would use a cheaper alternative or just cull it and buy new ones. That's just me. ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrienne Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 It all depends what fish you're treating. Example- If the fish is expensive, then the cost of Furan2 is cheap compares to the fish. But if the fish is cheap like neon, guppy, platy.... then I would use a cheaper alternative or just cull it and buy new ones. That's just me. ron Its not just you - its something I fully agree with as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Agree. Agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim r Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Furan is really really good (the best) but quite expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 My point was that if it controls (as claimed) gram positive and gram negative bacteria then it controls (by whatever means) all bacteria including the good ones in the filter. But not all bacteria is the same - and Gram positivity or negativity just isn't that relevant to chemical compound sensitivity (except at a very superficial level). Just because a drug controls SOME Gram positive bacteria does not mean that it contrals ALL Gram positive bacteria. Some drugs will retard the growth of both positive and negative, but there is no useful correlation. There is no reason to assume that because a particular chemical compound controls a Staphylococcus population/infection that it will also control a Nitrosomona one. It just isn't that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I am aware of all that. I am simply pointing out that if the drug (as claimed on the packet) will control positives and negatives then it is a broad acting agent and is likely to have an effect on the good bacteria as well. Many drugs will do that and I think people need to be aware of that possibility. To the best of my knowledge bacteria are either pos or neg as I have not heard of ac/dc bugs. But I live and learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I am simply pointing out that if the drug (as claimed on the packet) will control positives and negatives then it is a broad acting agent and is likely to have an effect on the good bacteria as well. You are drawing a conclusion not supported by the evidence. Just because a drug affects SOME positive and SOME negative bacteria does not make it broad spectrum, nor can you conclude that because it controls a SPECIFIC bacterium that is Gram positive that it will control ALL bacteria that are Gram positive. Does the packet claim to control ALL positive and negative bacteria? If it did, do you think you could give it to your fish without killing all of the beneficial bacteria that live in their gut, in their gills, on their skin, and are absolutely critical if they are to live? Surely they must all be positive or negative too? And we haven't even got into the issue of dosage yet - that also plays a huge role in the effects and effectiveness of a drug. How come people can drink Indian Tonic water, which contains Quinine, yet they don't kill off the bacteria in their gut? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 You are of course exactly correct. Can you absolutely guarantee that Furan 2 will have no adverse effect on any good bacteria----because that is my point. Very few drugs would be completely selective. In a broad sense most disinfectants tend to work best on gram neg or pos bacteria and that is why some are better for the control of one or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 You are of course exactly correct. Can you absolutely guarantee that Furan 2 will have no adverse effect on any good bacteria----because that is my point. Very few drugs would be completely selective. In a broad sense most disinfectants tend to work best on gram neg or pos bacteria and that is why some are better for the control of one or the other. Go back and read my previous posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 I have. We may need to agree to differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 But I live and learn. You are of course exactly correct. We may need to agree to differ. :roll: :lol: So you are just going to contradict yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Are you assuming that people who do not agree with you are not learning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 No, I'm simply observing your reluctance to admit that you do not understand these things well enough to be giving advice beyond a preference, which you are still perfectly entitled to have. If you like Wonder Tonic then by all means use it and recommend it as something you have had good results with, but don't enter into a debate about the merits of other products like Furan2 based upon your demonstrated misunderstanding of chemistry and what it says on the packaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 I think it is pretty pathetic that anyone who does not agree with you gets called an idiot. After training as an environmental Health Inspector and getting top marks in New Zealand then working in that area for over thirty years I do regard myself as having some knowledge of both chemistry and microbiology. I don't think you are an idiot but I do think you are very arrogant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 I'm not calling you an idiot alanmin, and if the reference to the proverb has caused offence then I apologise, (I've removed the reference), however it is clear that I'm not going to convince you with either logic or facts. If trying to do so makes me arrogant, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 To clarify my thoughts: Wunder tonic and furan are usefull meds. Furan is a very good med. If people are tempted not to use furan properly because it is expensive then they may be better using another med like wunder tonic and using it properly. I would not normally use Wunder tonic but I would use some of the ingredients on their own. Any bacteriacide is likely to have an effect on bacteria other than those being treated and people should be aware of that. Have a good day. I would send roses but they are too expensive and you might take it the wrong way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 :lol: Send me Carnations! The differece is the ingredients and price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caper Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 conch, alan... Whew...I was getting nervous that you 2 were going to get in a big fight ...today is Valentines Day here, so send each other roses :lol: :lol: :lol: Do not have clue what you guys were talking about either, sure you're not scientists????? :lol: :lol: Caper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 You're right - perhaps we got a bit carried away. Happy Valentines Day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caper Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Thanks...ah, shoot can't remember if you folks celebrate it...doesn't matter... Happy Valentine's Day to you too Caper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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