FineArtist Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Hi there, does any know if the product Wunder tonic works as well as Furan 2. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faran Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Hi Jo, Blue here. Glad you made it to the forums I was helping you with your little sick tetra. Odd white spots on the sides indicating a bacterial infection of a wound as can be seen in your pic here (i've taken the libery of photoshopping the contrast and size) This has now developed into a secondary fungal infection which looks like fluffy cotton. I've advised treating with Furan 2 to get rid of the fungal and bacterial infection. With that added info someone will hopefully be able to advise whether or not Wunder Tonic will do the same thing. I'm not familiar with it so can't advise. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FineArtist Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 I went to the pet store to buy Furan 2 which I did... the store person said that Wunder tonic works as well as Furan 2 for half the price.... which I thought was bad upselling.... but I am aware that money can be in the brand name... just was wondering about this new plymouth company and their products - I try to buy NZ thanks for the editing of the photo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 If ive got fungus then I drop that wonder tonic or meth blue directly onto the wound and it clears it up without staining the silicon in your tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FineArtist Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 the store person showed me the liquid and said "look this will stain.." and then touched it with his finger !!!! kids stay at school ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faran Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 I'd have to assume that Wunder Tonic is just an anti-fungal then. Furan 2 will take care of the fungus and the initial bacterial infection as well. Keep in minf that adding Furan 2 will kill ALL bacteria in the tank and filter, so that lovely bag of filter bacteria I gave you will be dead and you'll have to re-seed the tank, so treat in another container like I advised. Melafix has antibiotic and antifungal properties but only a very mild result so if you really want to save your fish go with Furan 2. As Ryan mentioned direct application of Meth Blue - or Wunder Tonic - to the fungus will achieve the best result. This means catching the fish and literally applying it directly using drops or a cotton swab. Remember that you'll still have that initial bacterial infection to deal with though! Happy to help, see you around and say hi to Jaz for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Wunder tonic is meth blue, malachite green acriflavine and quinine. It is therefore good for bacteria fungus and whitespot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FineArtist Posted February 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 as good as Furan 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Wonder Tonic contains Methylene Blue which can damage your biofilter - as far as I'm aware Furan2 doesn't and won't, but it can give YOU cancer (although oddly enough the warning suggests only if you live in California :lol: ). That said, I've had good results on the rare ocassion I've used Furan2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Furan 2 is avertised as being good for the treatment of gram negative and gram positive bacteria. Since all bacteria that are not gram positive must be gram negative I find it difficult to see how it will have no effect on the bacteria in the filter. Some fish are I understand sensitive to furan 2. Methylene blue is a dye and useful in treating fungal disease and it stains (dyes do that) Malachite green is a dye and is useful in the treatment of fungus, bacteria and parasites like white spot but some fish are sesitive to it and it is a poison. Acriflavine is used mainly as a bacteriacide. Quinine is used to treat parasites like white spot and it is a restricted poison (can cause abortion I understand). So you pays your money and you takes your pick. Any drug which kills bacteria, plants , fungi or parasites is not likely to be much use unless it is a poison. Treat your fish with it and not yourself or your kids. Having said that quinine was used to treat malaria, meth blue to treat athletes foot and acraflavine to use on cuts and abrasions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 And Quinine is what make Indian Tonic Water taste good When all is said and done, you should try and select the treatment that best matches the symptoms on your fish - try and stay away from 'cure-alls' and make sure you work out why they got sick so that you can avoid a recurrence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FineArtist Posted February 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 ok thanks for the information... clearly I am a beginner... I grew up with fish all my life.. and now I am the one who is dealing with this sort of stuff. My parents had a silver arrowana and other werid looking things, my uncle breeds seahorses... and I stuggle to have a few common fish in my 22 ltr !!!! thanks for your help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 I've posted this in another thread, but it seems relevant to this discussion as well: The problem with 'broad spectrum' treatments like 'Wonder Tonic' and 'Melafix' is that they don't target anything in particular rather than treating an actual cause and if you know how drugs work, that isn't a good thing. All drugs work by interupting chemical pathways (they do things like preventing sodium crossing cellular membranes) and they do so in the host as well as the pathogen, .i.e. IN YOUR FISH AS WELL. Drugs don't kill pathogens, they only weaken them, hopefully enough for the host's (fish's) own immune system to finish them off. Usually the host is bigger and stronger than the organism attacking it so can withstand the detrimental effects of the drug in the short term. The problem with broad spectrum drugs is that they weaken your already sick fish in ways that are of no help in curing the problem. The fish above clearly has (had - R.I.P) a bacterial infection, so using something like Furan2 that weakens bacteria is better than some cocktail of poisons that have a questionable effect. I would go as far as to say that products like that don't belong in any knowledgable fish-keepers medicine cabinet, because there are better treatments available for every condition they claim to treat. They are a poor substitute for a bit of observation and research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 :bounce: Ooopps - double post removed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 I would have to agree that it is best to treat the actual problem only but the problem for many people is correctly identifying the problem. If Furan 2 as claimed is effective against gram positive and gram negative organisms sensitive to furazolidone, nitrofurazone and methylene blue it is also a brood spectrum treatment effective against a wide range of organisms, as is wunder tonic. The differece is the ingredients and price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 The differece is the ingredients and price. Well yes, that is kind of the point - but there is far more to it than that. I'm not going to type out all the chemistry here, and if you have good results with Wonder Tonic then by all means continue to use it, but I think there are far better alternatives available - like Furan2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 I have used them both successfully as well as the ingredients in wunder tonic individually and they all have their place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caper Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Furan 2 is avertised as being good for the treatment of gram negative and gram positive bacteria. Since all bacteria that are not gram positive must be gram negative I still say that a lot of you are scientists :lol: :lol: :lol: I haven't seen Furan 2 here, do you folks get at your lfs? Caper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Discusguru Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 I would have to say that Furan2 is a far better product (for me treating discus) than wunder cure. Tried that a few times and it does nothing for me. In saying that, always use what works for you best(as long as they fix the problem. Another one I like is Acriflavin. Works slower but does the job and is cheaper. ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FineArtist Posted February 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 for the record I have brought and used Furan2. because I had been given the correct information before entering into the store... my fear is getting wrong information and buying a product that does not work.... There is alot of research I have to do for this little hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 for the record I have brought and used Furan2. because I had been given the correct information before entering into the store... my fear is getting wrong information and buying a product that does not work.... There is alot of research I have to do for this little hobby. That is all part of the fun (I think :-? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Discusguru, wunder tonic contains acriflavine along with other things. I do prefer to use things seperatly but I also suspect that furan works so well because of its broard spectrum aproach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 furan works so well because of its broard spectrum aproach. It works better because the ingredients are known to be more effective against specific chemical pathways than those in Wonder Tonic. Acriflavine is used mainly as a bacteriacide. Wrong - Acriflavine is a fungicide and has some effect on some external parasites. Since all bacteria that are not gram positive must be gram negative I find it difficult to see how it will have no effect on the bacteria in the filter. Gram positive and negative refers to the structure of the bacteria's cellular membranes, and more specifically to whether or not it will retain dye during microscope slide preparations. (It was named after the guy who invented the process - additionally, histological methods are also where Methylene BLUE and Malachite GREEN get their common names - that's what colour they go if used to stain certain structures in cells) It isn't a valid indicator of effectiveness or otherwise of a certain drug against a certain bacteria because it has no consequence on certain critical chemical pathways, although they can interupt some particular pathways in some cells. It is quite possible to have drugs that will kill one kind of bacteria but not another - otherwise we wouldn't need different antibiotics, would we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 If acriflavine is a fungicide why is it used to control bacterial infections on cuts and abrasians? "That is a nasty mouldy scratch you have there my son" I still think that every bacteria is gram positive or gram negative, or do we have ac/dc bugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tHEcONCH Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 If acriflavine is a fungicide why is it used to control bacterial infections on cuts and abrasians? "That is a nasty mouldy scratch you have there my son" Fungal infections are quite common. Acriflavine might inhibit some bacterial infections as well (in fact it will even inhibit some virus), but it isn't the best option for controlling them - its primary strength is as a fungicide. Some drugs are more effective than others in certain applications, which is why the person who started this thread wanted to know if the extra expense was justified. I still think that every bacteria is gram positive or gram negative, or do we have ac/dc bugs You are missing the point - whether a bacteria is gram positive (will hold dye for a microscope slide) or gram negative (won't hold dye for a microscope slide) is irrelivant to whether or not a drug will inhibit a chemical pathway. Sensitivity to chemical compounds is not measured by whether or not a particular dye will stick in a cellular membrane. None of that means you shouldn't use Wonder Tonic if you personally like it, but there are a few people on this site (myself included) who report having better outcomes with Furan 2. In any event, the original poster now has plenty of opinions to read through and make a decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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