mr pleco Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 ok wanna start a thread to get some feedback and start a little discussion . i will state this is not a witch hunt nor a lfs bashing just a topic thats close to my heart ,so id like to hear from both sides of the coin if poss because maybe im looking at this all wrong . For years ive bred fish as a hobby, and to make a little money to help that hobby survive has always been great.My passion is in the breeding and rearing of the species not capital gain But my concern is raised when it comes to the selling bit, see for a breeder to set up properly and maintain good quality of fish he has to have a few tanks, this all being at a cost ,he has to raise young to a breedable size ,breed that species and then raise the young to a saleable size all at a cost , which when selling he hopes to recoup some of it .Now it is far greater an advantage for me to sell 50 or so fish to an LFS rather than 1or 2 to a private seller at a time, but i feel this at times is taken advantage of by the LFS to literally screw the price to an unrealistic value... case and point ... as you know i breed plecos, and at times alot of them. For me to sell 3cm to 4cm BN i have been offered as low as $2 for them and as high as $3.50 ea yet a 2cm BN from the importer which usually IMO is undernourished and undersized for its age is like $4 ea and the LFS sell these for like $8.99-$9.99 ea but when faced with a$2 fish they sell it for $6.99ea great for the LFS but the breeder goes home with a little over $60.00 for 30 fish and the LFS makes $150 for nothing . now some of these LFS can go thru 50 of these fish or more a month at that price, which puts demand back on the breeder who soon runs out , and the LFS is back buying from the impoter paying $4 a fish and retailing for $9.99 till the breeder can recover My question is why cant the LFS pay a resonable $3-$3.50 a fish keep the hobby alive and well in NZ sell slightly fewer a month (retailing $7.99-$8.99 ) but still make the same profit i know its about competition (i work in a supermarket as a butchery manager .so i know about cost analyisis ,wages,overheads,grossprofit and net profit and all that ) but i reckon alot of breeders get out of breeding for the sheer reason is they cant recoup some of THEIR losses. i dont want to make money (but it would be nice i admit ) but at that price its hard to break even ,and the customer goes from one week fish being 6.99ea to the next week 9.99ea dosent it make sense to even out the seemingly unbalanced ..??? as most on here have stated its better to buy local bred as they are healthier and usually bigger ....i realise if i dont like the price then use your feet and i have in the past , but it seems to me more shops are taking the approach where you can screw the local breeder either to make better margin or to increase competition ..my response would be what would happen if nobody decided to breed locally where would you buy then ...trade me is getting bigger and bigger and i note if LFS dont address this soon they maybe the ones crying foul in the future ... p.s this is not a threat nor indeed intended to accuse anyone of such action just a topic for debate and feedback would be appreciated happy breeding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 They do it, because you let them do it. Worse still are the plonkers that give you store credit. Big deal, ya can't get a slab with store credit. At the moment we have in Auck. someone selling killifish for $5.00 and the shops selling on for up to $25.00 each. If I was that person, next time the shop wanted fish I'd ask for approx 50% of what they sell them for, or make sure that the public price is no more than 120% of the cost price. Hell they are even getting them delivered to the shop for "JAK" and not paying GST either. Harden up is all I can say or deal on T/M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishboi Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 i am not sure LFS are buying at an unreasonable price. when i sell to LFS i expect to get little but less for them for obvious reasons. only very recently they've been pushing the price down on certain fish but that's because of local competition, still not unreasonable. example: a large female BN well conditioned can easily produce 200-300+ fry every 3-4 weeks. takes about 5-6 weeks for them to hit around 3cm mark which goes for $2each. now i know i dont spend anything close to $400-$600 per month per every female BN i breed with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Girl Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 When you say BN I assume you are referring to Bristlenose I have two of these which I bought at my nearest lfs and they cost me about $19.00. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gannet Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 Why do shops buy off importers more than breeders? as i currently work in a shop (last week) i am going to say that when you have on average 200+ fish coming in a week it is easier to have one big order comming in than 10 little orders coming in a day make sence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr pleco Posted May 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 yep gannet i agree its not a question of why buy more from impoters than breeders but you know as well as me the price difference between what you WILL pay for imorted and what you tell the local breeder you are prepared to pay for local bred fish there is always going to imported fish and ihave no problem with that but when faced with buying local at least give local a decent price as examples show above the diference can be huge in one case i was literally threatened that if i sold to that LFs and he saw my fish on TM he wouldnt buy from me again as i was making him look like a theif on TM with 1/2 price fish ,i told him if the hat fits then he should wear it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakyfish Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 What if somethin happens to those original 30 fish and 10 die like that Would you just replace them for him or will he have to wear the cost of it Here in Aus he would more then likely get a full replacement for them straight away from a wholesaler Not saying you wouldnt but I know of a few local breeders that dont care I myself wont buy from a local breeder who is going around selling the same fish top others cheaper then he does to me If im going to buy larger quantities I expect a better price which means a higher mark up LFS arent exactly a high money maker but they dont expect to aleast make a wage Alot of the price wars are happening cos there are a few people breeding the same fish Why would they pay $3 to if there is another breeder willing to sell at $2 As said before you have the choice of selling them If you dont like the price simply dont sell them Justin is one persion who doesnt like to sell 1 or 2 here knowing I will buy everything from him in one go Yeah he makes less per fish but he doesnt have to worry Brad Its as easy as that I have plenty of customers coming in trying to sell fish to me and some of the prices they expect to get for their fish is amazing The problem with not dealing with a shop is the amount of fish you will have each time ready for sale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr pleco Posted May 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 point taken freakyfish and thanks for your input and its not about the breeder selling cheaper elsewhere, usually , for more than he got from you but less than what you are retailing them for and i also agree that its less hassle to sell 50 in one go than 2 fish 25 times over but can you agree that its far better to buy 50 fish every month at say $3 than to buy 50 one month at $2 from a breeder and then 50 at $4 from the importer and because your retail price would fluctuate yr sales the second month would decrease while maintaining the same profit allowing for the fact that you put the same mark up on both items yet your expenditure for both months has stayed the same so in theroy you are making LESS money the second month by doing this and to answer yr question about replacement of stock i would and i have, if i feel it was genuine i have had an LFS claim to lose 20% everytime i sold to him only to discover he was selling them and trying to claim death to make better margin ...it does happen but not in every LFS and i do give benefit of the doubt ..and that was a long time ago havent had that problem for ages .but if there was a problem i would replace the fish as my intention is repeat business as is yours isnt it ? And to buy in quantity is rewarded with better price but my question to you is for the same quantity off an importer would you get the same price ? also like to note that while some breeders will sell for $2 they are usually ones that come and go , and have inferior (at times ) quality ..yes you are in the business of making money and good on you for if it wasnt for ppl like you we wouldnt have the types of fish that we have now i realise ppl can expect to get unrealistic prices for fish when selling their thought probably is "well i payed $10 to get it so $7 to sell it now it has grown a bit is reasonable like i said i am in the retail trade and understand margins GP etc and this thread in now way is intended to intimidate i still will sell trade to LFS its just a discussion on the issue to get some feedback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakyfish Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 Well Im glad to hear your a honest breeder who will do the right thing if something goes wrong There are plenty that dont If i had to buy something this month at 2 and then next month at 4 I would keep the same retail price and make more when buying from the breeder then the importer Nothing worse then seeing prices change everytime you go into the shop I try and organise it with my local breeders to keep a constant supply so I dont have to go from one source to another but sometimes this is always possible Buying in quantity sometimes will work when buying from an wholesaler but they generally expect the quantity in the first place Some things yes and some things no Though when a breeder somes in and for example BN He comes in wanting $3 for 3cm If I wanted to buy 50 I would say ill offer you $2 Some people say yes and some haggle abit till we reach a price we both agree on Other ways to get a better price is trade for a larger item Sometimes you want that filter or food My credit price is alot higher then my cash price I find the breeders who try and make money from breeding fish are the ones who dont stick around long when the breeders who are prepared to virtually make no money but dont pay any money for the fish are the ones who will stick around the longest Also from my last post if there are 5 breeders all selling the same size fish the shop will always pit them against each other to get the lower price Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr pleco Posted May 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 excellent response and i respect yr honesty thanks for the input brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 I used to breed 50000 fish a year and the only way to get rid of them was to sell to a wholesaler with 125 retail outlets. It becomes a numbers game. It doesen't cost much more to raise 1000 fish than it does to raise 100. You have to let the person you are selling to make a profit as that is what they are there for. I was getting 50-80cents for angels, 50cents for cories and $1-$2 for killies (but only a limited market). You have to always have more than they want or they go somewhere else. You also cannot be selling at the back door if you want a shop to buy. Good luck---it can be a lot of fun. I had 8 pairs of angels breeding all the time plus mainly 5-6 varieties of killies, corries, fighters, gouramies and a few live bearers. I have to admit that it was in the days when we got our own live tubifex and it cost $20 to send an import box to Auckland by air. It is a bit different now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianab Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 I would suggest it's that problem many businesses have where you go from a hobby to a full blown business. As a hobby it's more about finding a home for the extra fish and maybe making a few dollars to support your hobby. You cant supply a regular stream of fish from a price list. The shop really has to just buy what you happen to have at the time while thinking about what will actually sell. A full blown breeding or importing business can supply a list of stock and prices to the fish shops, they can order exactly what they want, and usually pay for it next month. OK, so they will buy off you, but at a lower price. It's more hassle to buy off you, so they will only do it if there is more profit involved. If you go up a level and hold some regular stock, build up a relationship with the shops you supply and invoice them for payment on the 20th you might get better prices. But then it's not a hobby any more.. it's a fish wholesale business. :-? Cheers Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishy_t Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 I think it would be nice if shops marked all of their fish as being NZ made or imported... Clothes are after all!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub.z Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 As fishy_t said i would more likely buy a fish that i know is from a local breeder/enthusiast rather than imported. It would be nice if they stated on the tanks wouldn't it. I may suggest that to my lfs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.PROPHECY Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 you could just ask them ,im sure they will tell you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishy_t Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 Yeah I agree! But I do think it would be nice to make the whole thing more transparent for people who aren't aware how many fish do actually come from overseas... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquagold Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 Great thread! Interesting discussion and good to see the points being made. Shops do like to deal from one supplier who can supply most of all that they want. This makes it simplier and less time consuming - time is money... or pay for the convenience.... The other fact is if you are willing to wait 6 weeks to get paid and have $30,000 owing in creditors and hoping everyone is going to pay so you can pay the people you owe money too because if you don't get paid and you still pay the people you owe.... and then you hope you have some left over to feed your family, then there's the IRD.... The shop who recieves fish and pays there and then and then they die losses out if he thinks the fish were not right when they arrived but can't argue his claim with the supplier... Alot of locally bred fish has been inferior quality and yes alot of imported is as bad but the shop keeper is stuck in betwwen trying to supply their customer base something new...... he also has a number of families relying on him to keep them fed, clothed, sheltered... Still as a breeder I would always love more for my stock but I always keep in mind that if I can produce it as cheap as I can then hopefully the customer can buy the fish cheaper from the store and enjoy the hobby like I always have. Rob @Aquagold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 i am in the retail trade and understand margins GP etc I fail to see the point in the post then? I don't know what retail you do/did, I would guess the overheads would be less than a lfs? Wholesalers buy off local breeders as well as direct import. A good lfs will know what the true market value is. eg; some fish at wholesalers are over priced. Why buy a local bred fish from a wholesaler if they can buy off a breeder. LFS won't buy some popular species from a wholesaler unless they have too. If you want to talk mark up, I know what popular species in Asia cost to buy. The lfs dosen't usually mark up as much as them. 5 years ago, Tropheus duboisi were $2ea to buy from Asia. I think most of what I would like to say on the topic has been covered above. I will add a little, sorry lol. A LFS I know of, worked out that they had to turnover $8720 net a week, or $9592 inc GST. At around 57% gross profit, just make a profit of $30000 a year. The lucky boss owner. Marked up life stock around 300% to allow for 5% losses. A reason for high mark up on life stock is that.... Dry stock here is cut throat with on line wholesalers, therefore mark up is around 80% That is why a lot of lfs here have slowed up on cichlids. They can't sell them for the price they "need" too. People can buy cheaper from a breeder, so why{LFS} compete. Shops will still get to sell to the novice that is it. Can you imagine later on here in Aussie, when all lfs cut back on cichlids, be a lot of spare ones around. The wholesalers won't want them then either. lol. The chances of new breeds coming in will greatly reduce too. I believe in the lfs, been there done that. I sell{credit} what I breed to Brad for a price, that I know he can mark up & then sell. I get my benefits in return. I get private pm's from people wanting fish. I tell them the same price as what Brad is selling for. Funny, most people don't get it. Then again, to me it is just a hobby. But I know what is vital for the hobby to survive. Healthy LFS's!!! A lot of people don't get the lfs need to make money to survive. Cover the huge amount of overheads. That is all it is. One breeder didn't get it when my boss kicked him out. He was selling frontosa's to us for $20ea, then we found out he was selling them for $20ea privately. So when a shop gets pissed off at you if you are going to sell fish cheaper private, online etc. There is a reason. It's not greed on the lfs, they are just trying to make a living. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 It takes quite some time to establish a good reputation with shops and you have to be prepared to stand by your product to make it worth the shops while to buy from you. I used to sell plant to most of the shops in town and would put out a price list and deliver plants every monday. It is no good just expecting shops to buy when you have them available as they want a regular, reliable supplier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantman Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 there is always the case of supply and demand. LFS is always looking for the best and reliable deal. if they kill the local market, they also kill the changes of making a profit in their business. in the past, they have depended on rare fishes but many breeders has started in NZ and that is profit for both the breeder and LFS. someone said something about breeder have a choice to sell. if they sell too high, no LFS will buy and LFS would rather buy local fish because they are cheaper and dealing direct meant they have better control over the fish quality. when they do not have a choice, they have to deal with importers who has pump in heaps of money for quarantine and tax. they usually demand higher pricing then the local breeder. first of all, if there is no importer in the first place, there will be no local breeder. the choice is in the market for the local breeders, importers, LFS and the customers. no body can claim they are making heaps of money or taking advantage from one another. IF i want to dump my price to LFS, it is my foolishness. the LFS might be suspicious of the fish and might not even want to buy from me. as Alan and as many had said, maintaining a good reputation with our buyers is crucial if not essential. in the long run, price is not control by us but by the market; supply and demand. and our good sense of judgement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishy_t Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 Yeah - by far the best way to do it is to have a good relationship with your local. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 when they do not have a choice, they have to deal with importers who has pump in heaps of money for quarantine and tax. Maybe it is different over in NZ. Over here costs are minimal. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr pleco Posted May 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 actually the point of the post was to get discussion on the matter which i did and to raise awarness of the need for BOTH lfs and breeder and to see what opinions both had of how they felt they were treated as for the retail side of things i run a butchery dept that has huge overheads and losses of (whereby what we get in is only sometimes 2/3rds of what we sell ) so we have to mark up % wise to cover these expenses and i realise i mark up does not equal a GP i put this in to enable LFS that responded to know i had knowledge on the subject and so was understanding of their position my department by comparison runs at around 300,000 plus a week turnover so im familiar with bulk buying ,buying power and dealing with small business identities i still hold to my point that there is room for both breeder and LFS ask any business owner about long term relationships and it has to be a win/win situation the breeder has to survive and so does the LFS all my question was is do both parties feel that balance is there for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 I was happy selling to a wholesaler for less because I didn't have to sell to 125 fish shops. As I said earlier it is a numbers game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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