GE fish debate – not just talking about Danios.

[Keri Anne]

GE fish debate – not just talking about Danios.

What are peoples views on this very interesting and complexed topic and why?

RULES:

1) Please back up every statement with a rational. (e.g.: “This is my opinion… , this is WHY I believe this…â€)

2) All opinions are valid and to be respected.

3) No “Bashing†of people who’s views differ from your own.

4) No personal attacks

Come on people, I really want to know what people think and why. This is a matter that we have to think about – not shut away. There are pros and cons to both sides of the argument and it really is quite a fascinating subject.

If we play nice and respect each other’s opinions we could really get some interesting discussion going.

[SpidersWeb]

Yeah but the thread got deleted.

Ok my point of view, is that its a bad idea that shouldn't be encouraged, but.. I'm willing to let it slide a little. For example a few unique fish coming out is fantastic and strongly benefits the hobby (popularity), but too many and it'll destroy the hobby, filling pet stores with unnatural bright coloured infertile fish.

There are uses for GE, but the biggest problem is people flooding markets or getting carried away. Its also very dangerous when dealing with species released in to the wild, for example for food, because that can have major effects on the eco-system.

I'm not against GE itself, I just dont trust my fellow man to say enough is enough. I guess that really puts me on the fence a bit, but oh well.

[Keri Anne]

Actually only a few people posted their views there and many of them didn't give a rational.

What I would like to achieve by this thread is an opening up of the general topic and an investigation of why people have landed on whichever side of the fence they have on this very emotive issue.

I have no wish to offend anybody I was simply very intrigued by the fact that there seem to be equal numbers on both sides. I wish to understand how the issue is generally perceived a little more as oppose to only seeing my own very personal – and possibly very narrow perception of the matter.

[snookie]

what have i started ???

[Keri Anne]

So Spiderweb, the reason you think it's "Bad" is because you don't trust the people doing it to make the correct decisions and do enough testing? Is that correct?

Is that the only issue you have or do you have others?

Who do you think could make the right decisions?

Do you believe it could be controlled/monitored by some sort of international body? How could this work. Who, in your opinion, should be allowed/not allowed to make these decisions?

[fishboi]

i am unaware of any other fish besides the TK-1 aka glofish.

i personally dont see a problem with them as they're infertile [i highlighted as a few ppl still talking about these breeding] so purely ornamental fish. as long as ppl understand what their buying, why not?

they're not new and has yet to cause any problem, my only concern would be if it gets out in to our water ways and consumed by other fish it may cause side effects :-?

[Freakyfish]

Well My reason for not liking these type of fish is simply are not good for the hobby

They are not natural and if they do get popular that hobby we know at the moment will not survive.

Look at Blood Red Parrots Flowerhorns and etc I know these guys are mutated not GE though this practice wont stop if there are people willing to pay money for them

I just dont think we should be mucking around with genetics just to please ourselves and make our fish glow

I like the idea that the fish I keep can be found in the wild exactly the same

Though I do sell gold fish and Discus which doesnt really agree with some of my comments

I wont attack anyone elses views on this topic though I do like to hear others views

I do my part by not selling any fish or products that are unnatural to fish

Brad

[Aquarium Dude]

I usually disagree with genetic engineering and this is no exeption to that rule, but I do believe GE can be of some good. For example, scientist can now look at the Dna of you babies and check that it is "right" if they find that your son/daughter is going to suffer from a life threatining illness that specific gene can me modified to be correct.

However in the context of this converstaion I think it is wrong because the GE is purely done to create a fish that looks "better" (Ps. I dont think they look better)

A rule which I always abide by is EQUALITY, has humans we are equal to every other living thing in this world and that if we are prepared to do something for anything living we should be prepared to do it to ourselves.

[Keri Anne]

So fishboi, you believe it's ok as long as people know what they're getting?

How, can we insure that ppl know what they're getting?

If they were NOT infertile would you still be okay with them?

You have no concern about the issue of GE fish itself as a principle?

If they were not infertile, would you recommend some sort of licensing system to keep control of the population and make sure ppl know what they were getting?

[fishboi]

So fishboi, you believe it's ok as long as people know what they're getting?

yep, that goes for all fish really. it makes me angry when ppl ask what sort of condition should i be keeping my fish at, u think they would find out how to care for them first before buying a living animal.

How, can we insure that ppl know what they're getting?

i dont think its really up to us but more for the ppl that are buying and selling these fish.

If they were NOT infertile would you still be okay with them?

not at all, in fact i would be against them. its one thing to have them as ornamental its another if they breed.

You have no concern about the issue of GE fish itself as a principle?

not really, they're a lot more unethical things to worry about then GE fish.

If they were not infertile, would you recommend some sort of licensing system to keep control of the population and make sure ppl know what they were getting?

if their not infertile i would suggest not to have them for sale permanently.

[suphew]

Personally I have to disagree with GE fish, is any risk, no matter how small it might be worth it just to line the producers pocket? To me no, there are plently of great natural fish to choose from.

[Keri Anne]

Freaky fish

I find your “Unnatural†comment very interesting.

Selective breeding has been around for longer than the bible (Abraham even did it). Do you consider fish which are selectively breed for colour, size, fin shape etc unnatural because they do not occur in the wild? [Albino guppies, for an example will never bee found in the while because they are easy to see for predators and get eaten, they also have very poor eye sight which makes finding food or seeing danger harder. The genetic information is there but it’s simply not viable in the natural environment as in oppose to the unnatural environment of an aquarium.]

You raise the issue of hybrids and hybridisation in your posts, which I find quite interesting. Clearly you are against hybridisation… maybe you would like to go into your reasons a little?

In the same sentence as you speak about hybrids you also speak about mutation. Mutation itself is actually a very natural and necessary thing, some mutations are good, some are bad, and others are simply different.

All in all you’ve raised some very interesting points, thank you.

[Freakyfish]

IMO selective line breeding for colour is not a major problem

As long as your breeding the same fish together

I am very against hybrids and such

Mutations can be found naturally but im more against mutations through different species

Selective breeding for Albino guppies is a subject where evryone will have an opinion but they do occur in the wild but as you have pointed out they have a lower survival rate

The main reason people crossbreed different species is to make money

People love having something different from everyone else

Brad

[Insect Direct]

Red Danios Thread,

Whats up warren how come we cant talk about it, this is a fish forum after all and it was rather informative?

Thats got me stumped, I mean what can/cant we discuss on here if we cant discuss the latest fish coming into thy country?

[jim r]

KA is this a thread for ge fish or are you really after peoples opinions on ge in general?

[Keri Anne]

Red Danios Thread,

Whats up warren how come we cant talk about it, this is a fish forum after all and it was rather informative?

Thats got me stumped, I mean what can/cant we discuss on here if we cant discuss the latest fish coming into thy country?

Mincie, if you have a question for Warren it may be more effective to send him a PM.

The intent of this thread is to discuss GE fish - by the nature of the subject GE itself (regardless of species) will be discussed a little. However I would appreciate it if we could try to stay on or close to the topic. This is not a sh*t-stiring thread. It is an attempt for intellectual debate about a topic which we are all going to have to pay head to as fish-keepers at some stage in the future. Thank you.

[Keri Anne]

KA is this a thread for ge fish or are you really after peoples opinions on ge in general?

Primarily GE fish. However if you wish to address the border topic of GE you are quite welcome to.

[John Rimbauer]

I think GE pets is a frivolous and possibly hazardous use of a powerful technology.

I've done some work in this field, and I remember seeing the first steps in this direction done with plants, so that areas of high gene activity (eg where is this gene doing it's job?) could be seen without damaging the plant. This would have been the mid to late 80's. Jump forward to 95, and I remember quite a song and dance being made over fluorescent zebra fish. These fish were being used to explore cloning technologies, with the view that new organs could be grown from stem cells. The glowing was introduced to track what cell grew into what, and how it could be changed. I recall that they grew some odd things in that study, such as fish bodies without heads. This was all done in stringent laboratory conditions.

Now that the pioneering work has been done, and we have a cook book for achieving this in a stable form, it is open slather. It is quite honestly about the same level of difficulty as baking a cake, although the ingredients are a bit tougher to get! The inclusion of a single fluorescent protein (from jellyfish in the cases I've seen) isn't a big deal, but I don't think it will stop here. Anyone could create new fish in their garage if they had the equipment and inclination.

The easy method for this type of transfer is to create a DNA or RNA strand with the new info on it, and synthesize a viral protein coat around it. You then infect your eggs with the virus. In essence, you create a dud copy of a real virus, and the copy shouldn't be able to replicate and go on to infect new hosts. The bad part is that viruses (virii? I can never remember latin plurals) are very very good at picking up new genetic info from their host and changing suddenly. Flu, colds and HIV are all good examples of this principle, and it is no coincidence they are all very infectious and hard to beat.

The idea of having an unstable virus designed to be super infectious to fish potentially being sold from your LFS doesn't seem very clever at all. Can we trust each supplier of such fish to have taken the utmost quarantine precautions? Where there is a profit to be made I'm not so sure.

I think the aptest analogy is fire. It certainly is useful, and in some cases downright pretty, but not so much if it gets loose in trees around your house.

[Keri Anne]

Wow John. Very insightful. It must have been interesting to work in this field.

[Freakyfish]

Yeah I reckon

I would love to hear more about the work you were involved in

Brad

[herefishiefishie]

Very nice john. One of the best written posts I have seen for a long time.

Frenchy

[Skoll]

Wow... such an enormous topic that it's hard to make much of a comment without writing a thesis!

John covered most of the basics very well. Another good place to start is the report of the "Royal Commission on Genetic Modification".

As John so rightly said, the "glo" genes are a "marker" gene, which are usually attached to the intended genetic material so that the researcher's can tell which cells have successfully taken up the material to be inserted.

In something like a bacteria the "marker" would be a gene that causes resistance to an antibiotic, so that when the particular antibiotic is applied to the petrie dish only those bacteria which have taken up the wanted genetic material will be left.

I myself am not against GE as a whole. Some of the applications have huge value. And of course, in theory, all of this work should be performed with the "precautionary Principle" in mind. With people being people, this isn't the case and silly risk is of course taken. The ethics invovled could fill a whole other novel!

What I find offensive is the overly emotive and uninformed hate that has been seen. As in anything there absolutely are significant possible risks and benefits. And completely without doubt there will be large issues that arise.

Better stop there... there's so many things could go into such as bioreactors, genetic screening... Whew, done...

Gavin

[Insect Direct]

Mincie, if you have a question for Warren it may be more effective to send him a PM.

The intent of this thread is to discuss GE fish - by the nature of the subject GE itself (regardless of species) will be discussed a little. However I would appreciate it if we could try to stay on or close to the topic. This is not a sh*t-stiring thread. It is an attempt for intellectual debate about a topic which we are all going to have to pay head to as fish-keepers at some stage in the future. Thank you.

Ka Im not sh*t stiring as you put it, your sht stiring with what you put, yes i could send it to warren but then why cant we all discuss the ge fish (red danio or whatever) here?

I didnt even read the huge thread on the red danio and now dunno what the story is with it, if we cant discuss this here then what can be, I mean we are talking about fish arnt we, or did you want to talk about GE corn?

I dunno about paying head but I will no doubt be paying attention to these sorts of fish in the future, whats so wrong about discussing it so everbody has fair view on the pro's & con's of these fish?

[SpidersWeb]

Mincie - Read Warren's post entitled 'Red Danios'. That is the ruling until it can be proven otherwise (not heresay/likelyhood). So at the moment, there are no GE Fish in New Zealand.

This topic is discussing opinions on the possibility of GE Fish in the future.

Good reading too Sorry for the interrupt

[Keri Anne]

Ka Im not sh*t stiring as you put it, your sht stiring with what you put, yes i could send it to warren but then why cant we all discuss the ge fish (red danio or whatever) here?

I didnt even read the huge thread on the red danio and now dunno what the story is with it, if we cant discuss this here then what can be, I mean we are talking about fish arnt we, or did you want to talk about GE corn?

I dunno about paying head but I will no doubt be paying attention to these sorts of fish in the future, whats so wrong about discussing it so everbody has fair view on the pro's & con's of these fish?

I do apologise if I have offended you Mincie.

I just do not believe that other people’s threads should be jacked for the purpose of directly addressing a Moderator. [unless of course it is the moderators thread and you have been trying to get their attention without success.]

I have a genuine interest in what people think on the issue of GE fish.

I am also aware however that it can be a very sensitive and emotive topic. Due to this I would like to keep on topic. I believe that this is an important issue which is in sore need of being discussed and investigated rationally. It would be a shame if the thread got locked or deleted due to people going on emotive tangents.

I do not think that it is appropriate to manipulate somebody else’s thread for your own agenda and was a little offended that your post appeared to do so.

As for my opinion on the removing of the Red Danio thread:

a) You did not ask me, your post was directed at a Mod.

b) I think I’ll keep that to myself for now.