henward

when ou say 'red' arowanas, high grade red or cheap red. Cheap reds usually are green crosswed with a yellow tail wild animal...comes out pinkish in colour with a orangy tail....not really spectacular, not much different to a silver arowana fed plenty of shrimp and pellets to have a pink tinge to its body. Many feed silvers beef herat, which apparently turns its scales a dull silver to almost off white.... someone told me not sure i have not experimented. high grade reds, when they give birth... say 30 babies come out.... from two awesome parents, your likelihood of having all high end perfect reds are low... so what they do is pick them from a young age, from experienced spotters..... they categorise them to different categories and prices. examples..... say in a batch of 100.. 50 will be 'chilli red' whcih is good, may take longer to be red or not as red when adult..... but cheaper at say 3 to 4k. then another 40 will be VIP RED. 4 to 5k.... which is more red to begin with, will be more red as adults faster etc.... then you have the last few KING VIP RED or something meaning they are the best picks of the bunch.... 6 to 7k. overseas, i have seen people with fish of 2 to 3 years old bought as a cheaper chilli red look better than some VIP...this is unusual but can happen, humans are never 100% accurate.... this is all speculation from educated eyes and guesses.... so, if you buy a chilli red, your fish will be stunning... but, will it be as stunnig as a VIP or KING VIP? maybe not.... tiny tiny chance yes.... but more likley not as nice. buy one! aros rule!~ for 700, you can only get jar, green, black silver in nz. maybe a grade 2 red.

The guy that imports them knows his stuff. i bought a qian hu red before, for 900 dollars, it was so so, pink in colour... never really got red. and really disappointing, also not as lively and active as a good quality animal. MY RTG is a huge monster, bred from a good PANG LONG farm..... the higher grades usually have traits such as fast growth, strong fish and appetite. Aros 'fast' occasionally for periods of a few dsays to sometimes couple weeks in some cases..... good animals generally dont fast as much. My red fasted always, my rtg...hardly ever. my rtg costs retail $2500, that is 3rd down the cheapest of the aros! when it comes to asian arowanas. i tried exploring importing myself or paying an importer to do it. the cost of shipping, risk and having to sh ip 6 to 10 fish at one time, quarantine, licensing with CITES, holding tanks at home while for sale.... all of which, 3500 to 4k for a 'chilli red' or 4 to 5k for a VIP or 5 to 7k for higher grades really isnt as much when you look atit i think, the question is. 1) Do you love aros enough to spend that much, IF NOT. then ..... i suggest you buy a jardinii, they have nice colours, aggressive fish and natural too..... and cheap! or a black aro, but black aros are shy untill quite large!! slow to settle compared to other aros. 2) Do you really want to spend that much on a fish? I WOULD, would you? sounds like you would not:) I had the guy from that website explain to me in detail how it works, also another breeder from pang long farm explain to me also on MFK, named KOJI.... has one of the largest arowana farms in asia.... below is more detail

you can get a black ghost knif,e i believe same species just a different colour morph. in asia i have seen PINK! albino BGKs. i think when yous ay brown you mean the african knife?

i have 2 in my tank, get along fine. one is huge, the other is smaller. the other has a funny long snout, different variant apparently but not sure. i just thin its a bgk with a long snout. they are fine. i had a banded, clown knife and a bgk together....totally fine now i hvqae 2 big CK, and 2 big BGK, .... also fine. enough hiding spots or enough other fish.... aggression is nullified.... although some cases its not, like arowanas, they will single the other one out.

maybe as a group, we can sit maf down and they listen

everyone can pool money together. wether or not its spent the right way is another question i would contribute money to it. Who else? thats the problem. and who would administer that money.... you do need someone rich to lobby, and lobby hard. thats the only way. OR one of us needs to get a job with DOC and MAF and convince the top to look into it.

chipping, registration..... even user funded hobby and licensing has been discussed by MAF. believe it or not, many MAF officials believe in this... but people at the very top dont..... too hard basket. ages ago i commented on this. it does not benefit NZ in a big enough way to really make this happen. the industry is not as big as we would like to beleive. sure, it helps some LFS and some trademe parallel importers of goods.... but really, the entire reptile industry... right now anyways, does not provide nz with enough economic incentive for MAF to prioritise this hobby. thats the problem. the reptile trade is no where near big enough, significant enough for maf to say: "wait a minute, by destroying these animals, we are impacting businesses a lot" so they do it. secrecy is the biggest proboem, but that problme is caused by maf. chicken and the egg arguament. how do you stop it? i reckon, a big court case, with many people - a verypublic case. would you win? ....... might as well put money on the TAB - but if you are a gambling man....

yes that is true, that is true regardless of where you are unless there is absolutely no law regarding importation. sad, but i dont think reptile hobby here will legitimise

if someone wants to legitimise this hobby fully i will sign a petition. but thats the difficulty - you need alot of time and people to sign it. media attention would help. get animal activists on it.....

yeah theyd o, they have red on belly and some black spots too but definitely not a piranha:D

Hi ID: if mypost seem arogant, then i apologise, i dont believe they are intended to be so. but what i can say is that i dont believe my theories regarding the Reptiles are neccesarily far from reality. long winded... ok i agree but that is from making sure that my point is clearly stated, as clearly as i can anyways. and pre emtping any arguament and making a response for them before they are made i guess I guess, the question is.... i want to hear from someone give us actual figures - to disprove me completely.... i dont see any figures. This i guess is because what i am saying is not that far from the truth. anyway, i am open to listen if someone tells me something with more substance i guess. ACANTHURS: i agree, lets put everything aside ay. nopoint of getting personal. i admit that mistake. i guess i reacted - naturally i dont take conflict peacfully. but the end of the day, i havent really purchased in my knowledge any animals that was abit on the grey side of legalities. If i had mroe patience, money at the time, i sure would have bred some animals - i guess id dint know where to source them before others have sourced them already.... by then i was too late already. i dont think in the near or distant future, MAF will EVER allow reptiles to be imported for the mainstream... i wonder, do they have scientists workin at MAF to say which species is a danger or not? which one can establish or not? would be interesting to know who consults with the rule makers i guess.

yeah, tortoises is abit of a mystery. i mean when theys tart breeding they apparently can have some reasonable numbers but i guess, once again, limited blood lines in NZ - Limited specimens perhaps? that is definately the exception here in nz. also i think it takes a long time for Tortoises to get of age of breeding.

when did i claim to be robin hood i dont make or imply such claims dude.

acanthurus - I never in anytime saidi was a robin hood or claimed to be. lets not make this specific and personal, as i want to respect the moderators requests to keep this a discussion not an atack. i will not get specific on a person. you look back at the post there is no selfless act when it comes to breeding reptiles in nz, i have never seen it and i know we never will - like i said, there is always an element of money in it! and of course thats ok...just dont claim otherwise. like isaid, lets not make it personal. im stating things as a GENERAL COMMENT. so why are you attacking me personally? im over the you me and haisley ok? im just discussing the reptile hobby now, as per topic.

waxmot is higher in fat. crickets can also be fatty. my leopard geckos and beardies were no where near obese.... they in fact appeared to be quite lean as i fed the BDs veges when i had them. the leos are fed a mixture of locust, mealworms and at times crickets. wax moth is too expensive and too fattty anyways. liek i said, i have followed the advise of a breeder based in the US who exports thousands of geckos a year. and he recommended a diet for myleopard geckos. they have grown well, good tail size..... i dotn see a problem.

i said MOST dont pay tax. Most people on TM who are not commercially registered - that may only do it as a side thing will not pay tax. you do... great, thast fine, im not targetting specifics, im just saying generally. ACANTHUrus: No complete back flip.... you dont nkow me, i am a capitalist, i would wanna make money if i can...what i am adverse to is the claim that some reptiles breeders are "robin hoods" of the hobby. sure there might be an element of making them more common, but that is always tied in with wanting to make some money. that is what i am against, the statement above, not making money. acanthurus, there is no black flip on my statement - it was made for a specific context. If bill gates came to me saying that he started microsoft cos he watned to save african kids....thats a lie. but if he said he now helps african kids after making a huge amount of money.... that is not a lie but there is a distinct difference there. if youc ant see tht different - then you are obviously in denial.

Hi insect direct, id ont know what video that is i dont have access to you tube right now. The only video i have with breeding are leopard geckos. and i intro'd them when they wre more than a year old, and jsut gonna try to mate them thsi summer. I will not sel,l babies unless i get surplus males.... i want to keep a colony of them in my large tank. I am a collector ID. i dotn knwo what you have against me. I bred mealies for my fish - they are good for colouration of arowanas. I bred mealworms for Leopards, also i breed locust, i also feed occasional wax moth. i cut load mealworms wtih fish flakes andpellets, veges to ensure maximum nutrition. My leopard geckos are no way mistreated if thats what you are implying and dont know why you would imply such a thing - when i feed my fish, i feed extremelygood food. I probably spend more on food for my fish than most people on here - i have even parallel imported very expensive food for my fish to ensure maximum nutrition. when i invest in an animal, such as an arowana for $1500 or leopard geckos for $1500..... i tend to want to take care of them well... so i disagree about the care i give my reptiles ID. Mealworms is not a bad food...... msot breeders In the US and UK that produce massive amounts and great specimens feed mealworms too. Gutloaded with fish flakes and veges as i do. thats where i got the idea from. ........ so i dont know what you are on about. the beardies i got a female also.....i was thinking of breeding but like i said, too lazy! but it was nice seeing a male and female so they had a companion and the displays were cool. I fed them mealies, wx moth, locusts, crickets, veges..... i dont see whats wrong with that

Insects direct: First of all, - i was not targetting specifics. I will guarantee that if not all , most of people who sell BDs or reptiles or fish on TM dont pay tax on profits. Denying that would be naive. Insect direct, I dont sell fish for profit.... I dont breed fish for profit, tried but too impatient....what can i say, i am a collector at heart... not a propagator/breeder.... we are different breeds of hobbyists. Second of all, I NEVER IN ANYTIME SAID IT IS EASY to breed BDs. in fact, i never really tried, imt oo impatient. In fact i have never tried to breed reptiles, trying with leos - but no luck yet. they are jsut getting of age - also i want a big colony, not to sell at all in fact. I dont believe leopard geckos is in astage where you cant make money now - seling it is difficult now not like 1 to 2 years ago. which proves my point. LFS and Owners selling them for 800 each or so, half of what i paid for - and cannot sell them fast enough. So what im trying to say is for those who CAN breed them, they make money on them as they got in first...... If you really wanted, you can put alot of effort into sourcing the 'next big thing' then breed it, be the first and get some cash otu of it, but no matter what - you will get someone breeding these animals after 2 to 4 years, which will then effectively destroy the market. Also, i get what you mean - but breeding dogs are much different to breeding reptiles. first of all dogs are much mroe expensive to keep, especially big dogs. My uncle used to be teh top cocker spaniel and st bernard breeder In philippines... wins dog shows, each animal will fetch THOUSANDS! and... even some are shipped to hong kong as he had that reputation.... he used to spend so much on food, and in philippines, air conditioning as the st bernards overheat in tropical heat - so i have had exposure to the animal industry and nto completely naive on it... all im saying is that yes, you can do it for the passion, also the proceeds sometimes just help with the bills.... if you get to a point where you can sell for a profit, thats great. but with reptiles... i doubt that the initial dragons or water dragons, blue tongues etc bred was "show quality" we dont have that luxury here in NZ, we just keep what we have because of rarity and unlike US or UK, we dont have that much stock to choose from. the comparison is flawed. My reasoning if you take it into context i believe is sound. I never claimed i bred BDs and sold them for a fortune, nor did i try. when i got offered 2500 per dragon.... i refused, i could not afford it frankly. those who could afford it were lucky - some of which had the 'breeding thumb' and was succesfull.... to claim those people who bred them did not make their money back plus some during the Honeymoon period of t hat species availability in nz i beleive would be inaccurate. INSECT DIRECT: uptight? how am i being uptight, you seem to not be able to let go of the previuos threads, im literally offering my analysis as i see it and what i have experienced before. So i apologise if i seem uptight. All im trying to say, this discussion is about profitability of Reptile breeding - and there is a degree of profitability, not i say DEGREE of profitability.... and i stated that. as for SUPPLY IN DEMAND to elaborate. suply in demand is a term used generally. It can goboth ways. supply and demand can be used for a supply too much for demand and visa versa.... supply in demand doesnt mean there is always a demand and shortage of supply. hence i stated the first 2 to 4 seasons, is the honey moon period of reptile breeding in nz i beleive. after that, animals come of age.... maybe except tortoises. but once a tortoise starts laying - its only a matter of time that the market gets saturated. Another concept is this. Culling your animal on purpose to keepnumbres down. some breedersin asia of fish purposekill kill babies to keep numbers in demand. but yous ee.... the problem wtih thsi is that as soon as you get someoen that manages to get a pair and breeds, it undermines your whole market. so i believe the key is... when you have a good strain, wether it be a reptile or fish what ever... sell it as much as possible, but at the same time, develop new ones.. thast hwo the discus market works in asia. large scale breeders always have new strains and they dont sell it for at least 2 seasons or so... thsi is so they can constantly roll out new strains, at the same time developing new ones. so at any given time they probably have (jsut example) a few strains in the back burner ready to be 'launched' - thsi is common with flowerhorn in asia. reptiles, perhaps this can apply... but we have limited bloodlines here so nto erally possible. but leopard gecko breeders in US do this.... i have spoken to one, offering to ship me some strains for free in fact!! he said im not a threat to his operation, he offered to give me some for free!! but problem is that we can import them at all... legally at least. so naturally, i refused them. I apologise of my comments seemed like i was targetting someone.... ill screen my further posts to stop that... insect direct, my posts are genuine in partaking in this discussion productively... i am simply offering my insight and opinion to business and crossing with the hobby.... like i said, i believe the formula for business is the same and applicable accross the spectrum. it just needs to be adapted and customised for that market. ONE MORE THING lets make this clear I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH ANYONE MAKING MONEY ON REPTIELS, FISH OR WHAT EVER. lets get that clear...... however, i dont like hearing people saying they are robin hoods - when i beleive at some point they have turned a good profit from seeing an opportunity and taken it. Like most business men... bill gates, warren B, Donald trump, branson etc. when you see the window - jump into it! If i made mon3y from reptiels i would say and not try to hide that fact. to try and convince people you NEVER made moeny ro NEVER made good profit from reptiles is simply untrue.... so acanthurus, i am a capitalist through and through. In fact, good on anyone who makes money on it... i am simply putting forward my analysis on the whole "its not a money making venture" as it could be and im sure has been for a honeymoon period.

the concept is similar to even technological things. Price drops as more people try to produce the same product just different brand. to say i was saying is false is highly misguided. i am not disputing that it doesnt make you a BILLIONAIRE comeon, lets get real. all im saying is that it makes a good amount of cash, im sure tax free cash too! then you gotta keep up and keep getting new stuf... you can draw parallels to Ipods, Computers, Cars, Illegal drugs, tv, dvd players, dvd and bluray introductions.....even pizza. if anyone has an alternate analysis i would be happy to hear it, but i really do believe that, what im saying is a valid concept..... as it makes sense and logical, most of all i guess...........its true............ i was offered bds 2 years before it was common and available in shops..... i was told the price was $2500. i didnt buy cos i knew 2 years on it would drop dramatically, i got it for $500 in 2 years

say at first you have only grey BDs. after 2 seasons, you have sold say 100 greys for 2k each. you have made a substantial amount of money. feeding 100 babies is not easy, but it certainly wont cost 200,000 dollars. but if course, selling those would mean you have to find 100 buyers. but that wont be hard, if they have never been on theopen market before.... as the initial beardie breeder in nz, who ever it was... i am very sure, if they canc ome out to correct me and say who they actually are that would be a great help. 100 buyers is easy fors omething that no one has ever seen before in nz. then, you would say that 2 years time, 100 young becomes 20 pairs to breed (conservative extimate) then you bring out your Yellow BDs , greys are cheaper, and yellows are more...(this is standard, new variant for same product.) then same process then you bring out the red BDs. so on and so on. eventually the BD avenue ran out... so somewhere out of who knows where... Coastals came to market.... not so nice but ... novelty fator. etc... Acanthurus, the formula for business is generally the same NO MATTER what you are selling......elastic supply and demand..... i like it! there are technical words youc an use by using google, but understanding the concept is more important than having a label. How you think i came to this conclusion? Because i would do exactly the same thing.... IF I WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO OBTAIN BEARDIES. unfortunatley i was not. so like i said, you DONT ALWAYS make money on it, but there is a degree of profit to be made initially from them. i dont t hink you can dispute that - if you can, then i suggest you inform us all instead of our personal attacks undermining my analysis and credibility which i believe is sound in concept.

acanthurus, i think you totally misread my post.... i did clearly state that the price that is inflated is only valid for the first few seasons. after that, the market gets flooded and rarity is nullified... hence resulting in price drop which makes it not so worth while.... eventually people WILL struggle to sell the reptiles. in nz, only a certain % of people will ever buy reptiles, out of those people that would like reptiles... once again only a certain % would actualy spend the money. same with expensive arowanas, that is why they are nto imported as often as i would like them to be!! acanthurus, you seem to be picking a fight with me when i am not getting personal...thats ok, it shows that you are indeed trying to get a reaction from me:) but i wont bite 8) i will clarify. i used the term 50% deformities to simply put that even if you did have that many deformities, which you said with reptiles is different than fish..... as some fish you would perhaps get that many... just as an example. then even with such high mortality rate, it actually work towards your favour when you are the only one breeding a particular reptile. i believe you can ONLY make money on reptile with a honeymoon period of the first 2 to 4 seasons of young - after that, others will breed to. thats when you have to start doing VARIANTS to pump up the price.

yes that is correct. apparently, maf inpects the piranhas almost everyday in the public aquariums to ensure they are stil there and not being bred

i bought mine for $1500, i bought 2. $3000. jsut from me, the breeder of this reptile would have been able to use that money for a years power. i approximate that he had upwards of 30 babies. average each baby was sold for $1000 lets say.... thats $30k. now they sell for 700 to 800 each. i bought mine as i loved them.... not really a breeder, i just like reptiles and animals... but some purchased a massive amount, one person even bought about 6 of these leopard geckos... so....thats at least 6k. to say that this person did not turn a profit... even if you look at how long he has been trying to breed them.... once you buy the animal - thats it, only minor heating cost PLUS food. iguanas..... dont get me started. iguanas lay sometimes close to 100 eggs in one sitting...... and with out natures egg eaters and fungus and boring insects to kill eggs. viable babies from iguana cluches will be greater than 60% i am sure... how much money do you think that person made form iguanas, and that money was never confiscated through the criminal proceeds act as it was not available then. tortoises? ...... much more simple business - cost of keeping reptiles reduce in % as you get more breeders and your set up gets larger.

PART 2: the question is, where do these new reptiles come from.....? thast the mystery. we all nkow they are around. like the iguanas etc, shingle back, leopards ..... but some? maybe were smuggled... who knows. it happens, MAF can never be everywhere. how about people coming in boats? Or shipping plants. that snake that was found with plants shipped from south america.... how many of those come in unchecked? im sure some slip through. so..... to simply say that reptile breeders are not in it for the money is ... utterly misleading and false. The goal is to subsidise the hobby, reptile and fish keeping costs money.... reptiles compared to fish keeping i think is cheaper in general. from my experience, reptile keeping is 1/3 the cost of fish keeping. If you account heating, water useage, fish food, fish treatment etc.... reptiles, all you need is the UV bulb, heat emitter and food is usually household food..... insects can be bred yourself. MIce is easily bred with scraps. I would say, fish breeders dont do it for the money, but i would go as far as saying, reptile breeders for the first 3 maybe up to 5 seasons at least, will breed reptiles with the clear intention of generating a form of income.... usually surplus to the reptiles needs to turn a profit. Discus breeders in nz have repeatedly come and gone. some thinking they can make a good business out of it..... well.... untrue. but if you look at leopard geckos for example....

Ridge tail monitors.... interesting.... anyway. depends on the reptile you sell. it also depends on when you sell it. for example - beardies when it first came apparent that they were available in the open market... i remember them for sale for 2500 dollars each! now, lets say, it takes 2 years to get them to breeding a ge from a small animal...(lets ignore where the animal comes from at such a young age) when they breed, according to literature... and words of breeders, they can lay many eggs in one season. Say someone has 2 females.... has to cull 50% of the babies if deformed (unsure if reptiles have deformities like fish) say 2 females, can produce approximately 20 viable young each. Total of 40 each young WAS sold, notice i say WAS sold for average of $2000 each (make room for bartering, though i doubt that as at the time, there was only 2 known breeders of such reptiles) 40 x 2000 = thats 80,000 dollars. The cost of a 100w heater on for 24/7 right now at current market rate is about $4 per week. Back then would hvae been less. THe lizards were sold more than it is now, and the power bills then was less, not to mention initial insect breeding start up cost. I have bred mealworms myself, very easy.... i had thousands, tens of thousands at any one time.... i had to freeze them to preserve them. Thats cheap as chips..... bran is 1 dollar per KG in todays inflated prices, back then would have been 30c. i used carrots as a source of water... you can buy bulk carrots at less than $1 per kg, once again in todays prices. so to say that reptiles breeders dont make money is a gross misconception.... what you should say is that: "reptile breeders make money only in the first 3 seaons of laying.... after that, everyone breeds that reptile...then you gotta find new ones to breed"