chimera

:lol: :lol: :lol:

dunno where it's from but it's koran angel, not korean angle.

hmmm, did an image search on google for korean angelfish and this is the only pic that was returned... :lol: :lol: :lol: best if you spell it correctly next time!! "koran" RnB - i think those returns with a small market you're dreaming a bit

that's pretty much it in a nutshell caryl, it is hard mixing species (much like a freshwater tank though) and introduction and numbers of marine should be even slower and lower than fresh. im personally not as concerned with fish prices (although i do object to forking out $65 for a cleaner shrimp! especially when i need several!) IMO, marine fish prices are not too much of a concern to most - they do need careful importing and ultimately deserve a higher price. They also are typically a long term purchase (assuming your tank parameters are good) most living for many many years (well, most live reasonably long). you cant keep as many fish in a marine tank either so for under $1k you could stock your tank up with fish and be done with it for quite some time. corals on the other hand are my issue. they can be fragged and grown here (sure, you need to pay for tanks, power, maintenance etc which pushes price up) and this is why people buy/swap off friends saving mega-bucks. $1k of corals will buy you sweet f-all - thats where i have my issue - LFS charging $100+ for corals (not to mention all the equipment for the newbie wanting to setup marine) doesnt help when MAF restrict importation of live rock etc too...

"kitty litter"... no not really its just a clothing bag for cancer foundation

picked this up today, looks good (well, at least it looks better than the photo shown below!!!) Cost me $30 for 23kg's. Not live, but not bad. Will start adding this slowly next week (btw, it's the sellers pictures and writing above! Gravel? well,... sort of )

i highly doubt it will cause marine shops to close layton, if they only specialise in marine, they would have closed years ago. there's plenty more people in freshwater than marine.

i tried to frag my wife so I could have a thre.... ahem, wont go there... :lol:

...and that is just my original point! LFS need to start marketing some other way to reduce their overheads and increase profit. The USA are doing it successfully online and their prices are good. If someone in an existing LFS got off their chuff and did it, IMO they would do well (Jansens for example, still sell ALL range of pets, not just aquarium products so they can still afford to maintain a "public presence" and while Hollywood are fish only, they still dabble in the freshwater scene where I suspect the vast majority of their profits come from) Anyways, what I suggest above is not even what the debate is about, its about as Pies says, that Nick/Steve importing will kill the market. I really cant see this happening. If their business fails, what have you and I got to lose? Nothing, its not our risk, its theirs. If they succeed, we at least have another avenue to purchase goods at lower prices.

wow, it's gone 3 pages without any personal insults :lol:

pics?!

hmmmmmm? it's rare that this occurs in the market especially when there are options to purchase overseas nowadays. an extra importer (nick/steve) is certainly not going to kill the LFS market. i would suspect if heaps of people started doing this many would not survive long...

great lengths to provide a service??? they have gone to great lengths to create a business. it's a dog eat dog world and its all supply and demand. low demand = less supply = higher prices. more demand = more competition and more supply = lower prices. now tell me HOW you will ever get more people into this hobby at the prices they sell at, regardless of whether LFS make margins or not. im taking a selfish approach and want lower prices - thats what i demand although not what LFS supply at a good price (sure, because of overheads etc) im looking at the equation from a consumers point of view, layton/pegagus are looking it at the suppliers point of view. IMO, i dont care who gets my dollar, so long as its the best deal (hence why all the higher priced goods in my setup are purchased overseas and livestock is bought as trades or through friends). LFS need keep up with the play - start selling goods at a discount online (alot fewer overheads there) the Internet is a great tool and ecomm is the way of the future,... how cliched... 8)

sure, but the shops will HAVE to discount prices in the first place in order to compete. it's like paying trade versus retail,... no one (should) pay retail for anything these days. sure, LFS have overheads but so does the $2 shop get enough people interested because of lower prices in the shops and everyone wins.

What you are saying does make sense, however... That is where you and I have differing opinions. Lower prices, no matter how they are achieved is good for myself and others already in the community. However, lower prices also attracts new potential reefers into the hobby as well. How many times do you see a freshwater hobbyist posting a question in the saltwater section about wanting to start up a reef tank only to find that its going to cost the same as a small car?

i would have thought open discussion such as pricing would be beneficial to the community? i dont recall any attacks that were too personal? (except for one minor retort that i directed at layton)

i dont believe the thread was ever driven by ignorance - discussion was stopped by ignorance. ignorance would have meant nothing would have ever been said and we all would have stuck with paying ludicrous prices for livestock and goods (no layton or moderators, its not a personal insult, its simply my opinion. if i were insulting, i would have said "pies you are a @#%" or something like that :lol: ). in addition, IMO, everyone that has the opinion as above in no way shape or form blames Alois for high prices. in fact, i think most praise the work he has done for the reefing community. the only blame to be laid is with the shops as its them that dictate market price. why do they charge high prices? because they can (and i would too if i were in the same position as them) hence (IMHO) that by having nick/steve bringing in some good competition will either force them to drop their prices OR lose business. now i'll just wait til the moderators have a read of this and lock down this thread for putting in a completely valid comment...

cool, will do that then. cheers.

ok cool, cheers guys. next question is who has a small amount of live sand I can buy and seed with the coral sand?!!! i might seed it outside the current system for a few weeks first. how does this sound? - flush sand through rodi first - chuck it in a bucket of saltwater with a small powerhead - add some live sand and some live rocks to seed it any better ideas?

I bought a box of this off trademe cheap. is crushed coral sand any good? i assume because it is coral sand it wont contain silicates. is crushed coral sand of the aragonite type?

doc - the american made (WD) iwaki's are cheaper but apparently aren't as reliable. even the yanks buy the japanese motored iwakis.

just make sure it's the RLT model (pressure rated) versus the RXT model (high flow) the 100rlt does about 1800gph at 12 feet of head. this is pretty much spot on for 2 x 3/4" sea-swirls as they're rated at 850gph each (plus you'll probably lose a little flow because of twists and turns in the pipe - just make sure you use 1" pipe!!! im running 3/4" so am losing a little - but aren't too concerned as im only running a single 3/4" sea-swirl) check out marinedepot, they are priced well there - you should be able to land it (including shipping and gst) for about nzl$700. your best bet is to double check with ed at aquarium currents ([email protected]) bloody helpful guy - but will probably just confirm what i've already said trust me, i've been through all this @#$%$^ already getting the wrong iwaki twice.

i only have 2 x closed loops for my tank (with 4 outlets alternated by 2 x scwds - yet to be hooked up). not too much difference between rxt30 and eheim 1262's (eheim 1262 @ 900gph vs iwaki 30rxt @ 1100gph @ 0'ft head). eheim's are cheaper though. hence the reason for 40rxt's (1500gph) to make a significant difference. otherwise, why not just get eheim 1262's as save some dosh? (eheim 1262 approx half the price of an iwaki 30rxt) alternately, im seriously considering streams but the wife will have my nuts on a plate if i forked out for them :-?

it's all good. have enquired about 2 x Iwaki 40RLXT's from Marine Depot - comes to just over $1K landed (includes shipping and GST - thats for two of them) for closed loops. A little on the pricey side for me. Am probably going to see how the Ocean Runners go as it should be about half this price for the same litres/hour. Still plenty to do - and there will be many pic's to come on this thread - patience is all! I managed to put a door on the sump room today which is pretty cool, so much easier than a piece of gib board and a towel and so much better to keep the heat in thus saving on electricity. pic will be up tomorrow

maybe pies could do me a favour and frag me a piece too coz it's so pretty