David R

Define accepted? There is noting wrong with hybrids, as long as people make it clear that they are and don't try to pass them off as species. Look at flowerhorns or blood parrots, not my thing but immensely popular fish. IMO hybridisation for the sake of it and done by amateurs is only going to be bad for the hobby. Someone with the time, money and space to devote to selectively breeding things like the crazy colourful fh's that are actually an "improvement" on nature are one thing, but just crossing X with Y to see what happens is just going to make a mess, just watch what happens with the "rotkeil" severums being sold on TradeMe...

Its most likely that most of the "surinamensis" we have got/get here are G. altifrons varieties.

I'm not going to repeat myself every time someone says the s-word, if people want to take pet shop names at face value then thats up to them. :roll: Olly, perhaps reading this might help answer your question; http://eartheaters.qldaf.com/index.php? ... rinamensis

But just call them Pterophyllum Sp.

http://finarama.com/tba/chronicles/peruvianscalare.htm Its amazing what you can find and learn with a little Google search, it seems likely that the "peruvian altums" are actually a variety/subspecies of P. sclare, and should probably just be called Pterophyllum Sp. cf. sclare until confirmed one way or another...

*edit* Mark I understand now, I wasn't looking at your post in reference to the one above it, perhaps I should get some sleep... :lol: LOL so my "peru altums" from you-know-who (search trademe for 'peru altums') are most likely just regular P. sclare (or maybe even hybrids). I should try get some pics of them and get someone who actually knows what they're talking about to ID them.... Does this pretty much sum up what you're talking about Mark? Same could nearly be said for the red devil/midas senario, and a heck of a lot of fish in the hobby today;

I've often wondered about that, as aros (not sure if this is strictly the south american species but I'd guess so) have specially adapted eyes for spotting insects in the branches above the water in the flooded forrest, perhaps putting them in a tank with several bright lights causes them to constantly look down away from the light. I'd like to experiment with pond-raised fish, but our climate isn't cooperating! My biggest questions about that theory is why it only happens to silvers and not blacks, and why it often only happens in one eye. In reality I think its likely to be a combination of things, including genetics and environment.

Neither of those are subspecies of anything, both separate species, what am I missing? The link looks interesting, although in my breif scan of it I saw more talk of genetic mutation and recessive genes rather than inter-species hybrids. Although I don't doubt that most angelfish sold in stores are "mongrels". As Phoenix pointed out, Homo sapiens IS the species (Genus = Homo, species = sapiens). It never ceases to amaze me how many people incorrectly use the word species. Wikipedia has a lot of good information if you want to learn more, the page for species is interesting, as is the page for Race (classification of human beings). I hate wiki though, its one of those things where a quick check of something can lead to hours of distraction when there are much more important things you should be doing... :lol:

If you know they aren't hybrids and are true species then you must already know what they are. No amount of selective breeding will change a species name, so long as it hasn't been crossed with a different species. Crossing two different subspecies together would create a hybrid, for example crossing Polytperus bichir bichir with Polypterus bichir lapradei, but crossing two of the same species from different localities would not, for example crossing two reigonal varieties of frontosa, say Cyphotilipia frontosa Burundi and C. frontosa Zaire, would not. Just look at people, the child of a black african man and an asian woman would still be Homo sapiens, despite the vast difference in "reigonal varieties". So how would you identify a fish of unknown origins (like the A. citrinellus/labiatus in this thread)? By finding the descriptions for each species (fishbase.org is a good place to start) and looking at pictures from a reliable source (ie in books like Axelrods Encyclopedia, or on sites like tangledupincichlids.com that use their own pics of their own positively ID'd fish, not from random websites using random pictures from unknown sources). The most important thing to remember is that it is far better to admit you don't know and aren't sure and proliferate a mystery than to guess or say you know when you really aren't 100% sure and proliferate a misnoma....

evil_elmo is on the money, I've seen wild caught aros with de, aros in huge public aquariums with de, aros in tanks with no tankmates and only fed pellets that got de. ally07; good on you for researching the topic, however you should automatically ignore anyone who says that de is caused by an aro looking at its reflection in the bottom of a bare tank. Why? Go put a mask on and stick your head in the tank and look at the bottom.....

Meh, take it as you will. If go4itgirl chooses to take it as a dig then thats fine by me, she could also choose to be informed and motivated to do more research and further her own knowledge of the fish she is keeping. Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it.... :roll:

A common name is hardly "identified". By "red cichlids" do he/you mean "red devils"? Because "red devils" and "midas cichlids" are actually two different species (midas = Amphilophus citrinellus, red devil = A. labiatius). Wild caught fish (or captive bred from a known source) are distinctly different, A. citrinellus grows larger (to ~ 14" for males) and develops a large nuchal hump. A. labiatus is smaller (10-12" for males) and has much larger lips and IIRC no (or not much of a) nuchal hump. Large male A. citrinellus; A. labiatus: More pictures here: http://tangledupincichlids.com/photo.html However, all of this is pretty much irrelevant, mostly because of this hobbys sad habit of not learning Latin names. Chances are, unless you can positively trace the origins of your fish back to wild populations, that they have been (unintentionally) hybridised somewhere along the way. Most people aren't able to tell the difference, and didn't bother trying to learn. The common names 'midas' and 'red devil' got mixed up by ignorant hobbyists and lazy retailers/wholesalers, and before you know it because of their willingness to [inter]breed are unknowingly creating confusion. So I guess it doesn't really matter what you call them, because there is no governance or rules for using common names you can call them what ever you like, and as long as you're not trying to pass it off as a Latin name for one species or another then you can't technically be wrong. This is a prime example of why common names are nonsensical rubbish and anyone who considers themselves to have a slight interest in fish should go to the trouble of learning a bit about Latin/Binomial nomenclature. Sadly, we don't have the opportunity to buy wild caught and positively identified fish from people like Jeff Rapps, and even if we did I'm sure there would still be more people out there who would rather by 10 2cm fry for $10 on trademe than pay $20 for a single F1 fish from a known locality and a reputable breeder. BTW, none of this is a dig at you personally, just lamenting about the sad state of our hobby in general...

I hope you're not planning on unleashing them on the unsuspecting public without identifying them first.

Just a heads-up, I bought two severums from Hollywood Albany that look very similar to how my last Rotkeil looked at a small size. There's a tank full of them, probably 20-30 and they're $13 each, and they all look the same. Would be cool if a few people got hold of them to get a few breeding pairs established. I've made a post on MFK to see if anyone can positively ID them as Rotkeils. They are certainly different as the pelvic and anal fins are bright orange and they have a lighter green body and distinct black bars. Here's a couple of average pics; ps. These are NOT the hybrids being sold on trademe that came from my old Rotkeil.

You'll learn about that in health class.... two girls can't make babies!

I certainly have, thats why I said what I did. I guess the beauty is subjective, but they certainly are more refined and the name 'muscle car' reinforces that, its like a weight lifter versus a martial arts expert. And the skyline would certainly be rarer than most "muscle cars", I doubt if there are any in NZ at all. BTW I'm not dissing the yank stuff, its just not my thing.

I'm sorry, but you are quite simply wrong. I would pick a mint KPGC10 or C211Skyline over ANY american heap any day without thinking twice. Far more refined, beautiful, and rare. KPGC10 http://flickr.com/photos/van/567070720/ http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b85/R ... 270794.jpg http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s191 ... 1235705339 C211 http://aycu22.webshots.com/image/42861/ ... 776_rs.jpg http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/43308/ ... 238_rs.jpg http://s88.photobucket.com/albums/k186/ ... ent=16.jpg Then there's the Honda S600, Datsun Z's 510's 1600's etc, early Mazda RX's (yes they certainly are classics when they aren't owned by brainless burnout loving kids), Mitsubishi Colt GTO, early celicas, and even the mid-80's Toyota AE86, the cult classic Japanese sports car. I had a 1975 GTO as my first car, and when I have the time and money I'd love to restore one, I've got a real soft spot for classic japanese cars, so you kinda struck a nerve. What was this thread about again? *edit* don't you own a jag with a dirty yank motor? :lol:

Repainting the whole bumper is really the only way to get a quality finish.

H, have you written to Rodney Hide, the Minister for Regulatory Reform? My former boss who runs a plant nursery wrote him a big email detailing the stupid rules and regulations surrounding the importing of plants and seeds (its as bad as reptiles and fish, hundreds of species imported pre-mid-90's are now being bred here, legally, but aren't on the list and are supposedly not here. Seeds can easily be imported, but the list is so incomplete and foolishly designed. People have had collections raided, plants confiscated etc too). Write him a letter explaining the situation with herps in general, and what has happened to you and see if he can help. If the bureaucrats are trying to do something to make themselves look good, you might as well go to the person who's going to give them the chop and arm them with the necessary information to get rid of them and get some realistic sensible laws in place.

I agree with Whetu, having several small groups of schooling fish gives a tank a bit of a "shemozzle effect". I would replace all the smaller mid-water fish with a decent sized school of something like rummy nose tetras (20+, talk to your LFS and try get a better price for a large quantity).

Is that an old pic of the 6' or did you put your new red in there??

If its small enough you could go to honda and get a little pot of touch up paint.

Are you going to bring them inside for the winter or leave them out?

7' means nothing, is it 18" wire or 48" wide? Tough tanks in Auckland could, but their tanks are often expensive, and combined with freight it would cost even more. Maybe Inside Oceans in christchurch?

I disagree, its very complicated. If I told you that it was possible to keep discus, ornate and senegal bichirs, corys, and borneo tigers in the same tank you'd tell me I'm mad right? Well it can be done and I've seen it with my own two eyes. Fish compatibility is anything but cut and dry, there are certain factors you can look at (size, diet, water, etc) that can help, but a lot of it is going to be trial and error. Any website claiming to have a list of what can and can't be kept togethre should be avoided as in reality it is about as accurate as the "1 inch per gallon" rule.