petplanet Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 So how long can a bacteria live for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeroen Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Very interesting post. Feelers, I like your explanation on a sand bed. Reminds of the tread posted a month agon on the breeding station in the middle of the states that didn't use skimmers but very thick sand beds and just topped the sand up each year. Makes sense now. Loved the tanks on that post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 So how long can a bacteria live for? Well, as it stands the oldest living thing on the planet - is a bacteria. And it's quite a long time. :lol: After existing as endospores for two hundred and fifty million years (1/4 of a Billion!) an unknown type of bacteria were fully revived in the lab. They were taken from dried up salt bed samples from under New Mexico. Pretty damn cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Something else to think about.... If you have a fuge, then you need a tank, (unless you have a sump and then you use that), But if you add afuge and place sand etc, you are also adding extra water to the system which will counter the bioload in the first place. i.e: add fuge, add 200 litres, add bioload. It cancels each other, so the answer...BENEFIT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 How does water counter bioload? Skimmers counter bioload, not water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 The dilution effect. More water, more dilution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 That doesn't get rid of waste from the added bioload, it just means you can store more. The only way you can counter added load, is by increasing export, which generally means a bigger skimmer. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 In the book 'ULTIMATE MARINE AQUIRUMS'' featuring 50 of the worlds best setups, it shows that 40% of all of these setups use some form of Refugium (page 12). The fact is, a refugium simply adds more water without fish/coral/predators into the system. To argue that they are not of value is the same arguement as saying more water volume per fish is worse than less water volume per fish, which is, to be frank, a stupid position to take. To add more volume to the display, without fish or a heavy coral population to allow a different type of ecosystem to develop is benificial. Note: I am not talking about using the refugium for macro alge growth and harvest (something that in my experance is a 50/50 proposition), simply a portion of the system deviod of the life that dominates our crowded display systems. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 In the book 'ULTIMATE MARINE AQUIRUMS'' featuring 50 of the worlds best setups I found most of the tanks where pretty average and outdated. Pitty they did not have any of the modern tanks that are around these days. Maybe volume two will be out someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Reef having seen your set up, I can say you have a great refugium. You also utilize it for several purposes so I know you see the value in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Not sure it is a refugium. Basically two 4ft tanks running on the same system as the main tank with coral and fish. All bare bottom with no sand. I always thought a refugium was a tank that housed algae and sand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Note: I am not talking about using the refugium for macro alge growth and harvest (something that in my experance is a 50/50 proposition), simply a portion of the system deviod of the life that dominates our crowded display systems. So you're more or less talking about a sump. The popular concept of a refugium is a tank with some sand some macro algae, and a place for critters to breed and feed more or less unpredated. Extra water volume doesn't help with dilution of wastes. It does however help with stability of parameter like calcium, mag, alk etc, as there is a larger pool from which the corals can obtain this stuff. Why doesn't it help with wastes. Well from the skimmers point of view, it has a fixed volume of water passing through it an hour, no matter what the total water volume of the system is. Now the skimmer efficiency (for lack of a better word) is related to the concentration of waste in the tank. So lower waste concentration means the skimmer removes less per hour, higher waste concentration means the skimmer removes more per hour. If you take that, then you'll see that the concentration of waste is not related to total system volume, but the skimmer parameters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 In the book 'ULTIMATE MARINE AQUIRUMS'' featuring 50 of the worlds best setups, it shows that 40% of all of these setups use some form of Refugium (page 12). The fact is, a refugium simply adds more water without fish/coral/predators into the system. To argue that they are not of value is the same arguement as saying more water volume per fish is worse than less water volume per fish, which is, to be frank, a stupid position to take. To add more volume to the display, without fish or a heavy coral population to allow a different type of ecosystem to develop is benificial. Note: I am not talking about using the refugium for macro alge growth and harvest (something that in my experance is a 50/50 proposition), simply a portion of the system deviod of the life that dominates our crowded display systems. Pie Agreed, Fuge's usually contain zero coral and fish, and mainly just LR or Live sand. This means the water volume in this portion of the system is almost a non-nutrient factory, therefore assisting the main display by adding volume. The nutirients that end up in this portion are simply passing through from the main display etc. Algae fuges will release fcorms of nutrients ion the form of chlorophyll etc, and can add tanins etc. Rock or sand fuges on the other hand can only be good IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 I always thought a refugium was a tank that housed algae and sand. You thought wrong. A refugium is simply a place deviod of predators found in the main display. The pressence of sand or algae has no bearing. Its from the latin, Refuge, which means 'place of shelter'. I found most of the tanks where pretty average and outdated. Pitty they did not have any of the modern tanks that are around these days. Maybe volume two will be out someday. Your right, its not a very good book, I did buy it from you on your recomendation though, any chance of a refund? Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Yes Layton, but the concentration of waset IS diluted i the system water column and the inhabitants of the tank will be grateful of that. The skimmer doesnt care, nor do I for that matter, but the inhabitants do care and the column WILL be more diluted even the the waste concentration is the same. See what I mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 A refugium is simply a place deviod of predators found in the main display. The pressence of sand or algae has no bearing. Its from the latin, Refuge, which means 'place of shelter'. Pie Be realistic. You know that when people hear refugium, they think sand, macro, pods etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Not always macro though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Yes Layton, but the concentration of waset IS diluted i the system water column and the inhabitants of the tank will be grateful of that. The skimmer doesnt care, nor do I for that matter, but the inhabitants do care and the column WILL be more diluted even the the waste concentration is the same. See what I mean? Nope, it doesn't make sense. Concentration is the amount of something per unit volume. If you look at the steady state, then the concentration of waste before and after adding extra water volume is exactly the same (given no change to skimmer parameters). The dynamics will be different, initially the concentration will be lower, but given time to reach equilibrium again, the concentration will return to what it was before the extra volume was there. The physics of the skimmer will ensure this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Forget the skimmer, If you add water, the concentration drops. Thats just fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Be realistic. You know that when people hear refugium, they think sand, macro, pods etc. Be realistic? Of the 3 tanks I visit regulary (including my own) all 3 have a refugium, none have macro-algae. Just because you make an assumption doesn't mean it counts for everyone. As for the pressence of macroalge being a negitive, maybee so, but this doesn't make the refugium a negitive, simply the presence of macroagle. If it was in the display it would be just as damaging as if it was in the refugim. Realistic enough for you? pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 My sump is my fuge and holds dead coral heads, (Shitloads of them), DSB sections and LR. I have pods from Naam....!!! I have a great belief that dead coral heads convert nitrate to gas far more effectively that plain LR. The reason is that LR is ancient, (Generally), and is a lot more dense. The more permeable dead coral heads allow lots more dinitrifying autotrophic bacteria that LR. (I have read this also). I cannot gain nittrates or phosphates even if I try. The bacteria is too powerful and hungry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Initially yes, but then because of that concentration drop, the skimmer doesn't pull out as much waste per unit time. Which means that if the input of waste is constant (which it is, because you haven't added or removed animals), the concentration of waste then rises (as the skimmer is removing less, but the input is the same) And eventually you get back where you started, which is the equilibrium point of the concentration of waste and the skimmer. So again, the concentration of waste isn't related to the total system volume, it's related to skimmer parameters. It's the behaviour of a typical dynamic system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 But now that you have more water vomume, the whole system gains nutrients slower and is controlled easier by the skimmer and the inhabitants are happier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 Just because you make an assumption doesn't mean it counts for everyone. And for that reason it's called a generalisation, you'll probably find it's a pretty good one. For example the starter of this thread considered macro algae to be part of a refugium. Take a poll of reefkeepers any you'll more than likely find that this is the overwhelming opinion of what a refugium generally consists of. As for the pressence of macroalge being a negitive, maybee so, but this doesn't make the refugium a negitive, simply the presence of macroagle. If it was in the display it would be just as damaging as if it was in the refugim. Realistic enough for you? All I said was that nutrient export was not a good reason to have macro algae. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted August 20, 2006 Report Share Posted August 20, 2006 A refugium is simply a place deviod of predators found in the main display. The pressence of sand or algae has no bearing. Its from the latin, Refuge, which means 'place of shelter'. May be so but as Layton said. "Be realistic. You know that when people hear refugium, they think sand, macro, pods etc." most book also state that a refugium is a place to house pods, snails etc, so that the fish cant eat them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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