r0bbie Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Hey guys, Apologies for the long post, I have tried to include as much info as possible. I have tried the search feature but it is currently out of order. I have had my own tank for a while and have (luckily) never had a water quality issue. Over the last few months I have been helping my brother set up a tank for the benefit of my young niece (who is very cute btw) as she loves to spend time looking at my tank. Initially everything went well until about 3 months he started losing fish. He has now lost almost all of his fish and has only 3 neons left. I took my test kit around and have been regularly testing the water. According to the guide in the kit, the pH, nitrates & nitrites are all at normal levels. The ammonia on the other hand is out of control. Over the last 3 weeks it has been testing at between 6-8ppm. Taking avice from several websites we did regular water changes and used ammo lock to try and sort the problem. Over the next 3 weeks we continued to test the water but with no change. (I know that ammo lock does not remove the ammonia but makes it non toxic to be removed as the tank cycles.) Just recently with with still no change with another 2 losses and nothing to lose we decided to take a more drastic measure and did a full water change with water from my tank but straight away the ammonia measured the same as it did previous to the water change. Where is the ammonia hiding? We have checked the tank high & low for any decaying matter or food that can be casing the problem but the tank is clean. In its short prime the tank had only 10 fish (8 neons, 1 saimese fighter & 1 small bristlenose) which where introduced slowly over time. The tank is a Jebo R338 which is one of the all in one jobbies with the filter and light built in. ANY help would be very much appreciated here as I am at a complete loss as to what to do next. I really am starting to think the tank is haunted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakyfish Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 OK i have a couple of ideas for you When the filter was/is cleaned how is cleaned? Also how much food goes into this tank? Has the gravel been gravel vaced at all? A fighter generally isnt a great idea with neons and I have noticed them eating the neons IMO if there arent any Nitrites then the tank isnt cycling at all which would mean the filter is being cleaned under the tap Also to much food will cause alot of ammonia Id say now stop feeding them every day only every 2nd or 3rd Water change every couple of days only 30% Check water quality and when Nitrates are rising then its cycling As you know Ammolock wonrt remove it it also will not change the results from your test kit The majority of ammonia test kits convert all ammonia to free ammonia and then test it So its possible to have high ammonia from a test and not have an ammonia problem Whats the PH of this tank? Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0bbie Posted August 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Thanks for the reply. I will try and answer all your questions. -The filter has not yet been cleaned. It is filter wool & noodles. Is there another media we should get? -He feeds the fish every couple of days and only gives them the tiniest amount. -We vacum the gravel whenever a watercahneg is done. -The fighter seemed to be OK & was the 1st to die. -The pH last I checked was 7.2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Throw away your ammolok, that stops the cycling process apparently. Alan 104 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jude Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 How well is the pump working? I had problems with my little jebo at work and discovered the pump was only just functioning. In the end I changed to a UG filter and its been fine since. Maybe something dead is stuck in the pump? Cheers Jude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0bbie Posted August 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 the pump seems to be working fine & flow is good. Water is pumped up into the hood where it goes through noodles & wool then through a series of holes into the tank. Is there any additional media that I should be adding to the filter to aid the cycling process? Is anyone able to answer why the ammonia would still be so high after a full water change? That is really doing my head in at the moment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0bbie Posted August 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 If Ammo lock does stop the cycling process that would explain a lot. I will try and find some more info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 I would say that if you haven't cleaned your filter in months, that is the source of the problems. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HummingBird Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Yeah, Ammo lock is definately the problem, your tank just isn't cycled at all. Try taking some of the media from one of your fish tanks and putting it in your niece's filter, it will seed the tank with nitrifying and nitrafying bacteria. Herefishiefishie, not cleaning your filter in months is fine, the only time I generally clean mine is when the flow from them decreases beyond acceptable levels. The brown crap in filters is actually accumulated iron (and not fish crap, as you might think), I've been told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0bbie Posted August 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 Yeah, I only clean mine when the flow is effected which normally works out to be 4-6 weeks. I will take my used filter sponge the next time I change it out which is due in the next week or so. Thank you are for your great advice. I am positive that you have made a big difference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venustus Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 How long after the water change before you tested it? Some water conditioners (Amquel) will give you a "false" ammonia reading. It will usually read acurate after about 24 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Don't use anything that will remove the ammonia chemically. You are taking away the food to feed the bacteria that you need to complete your cycling of the tank. Alan 104 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Ceramic noodles, yep fine. I hardly ever clean mine. As for filter wool, well I go into more later if you like, got to go to work. We are saying 3 months as 13 weeks without rinsing filter wool. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fee Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 May have nothing to do with it, but have you tested the tap water for contaminants? (especially if it's bore, roof or spring) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakyfish Posted August 3, 2006 Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 The longer you leave the filter without cleaing it the less it will actually work Once it starts to clog alot of bacteria will die off as there isnt much water flow through therefore starving it from Oxygen Once it gets to the point it will stop removing ammonia from the water Also Ammolock and such products will not remove ammonia from the water they convert it to ammonium which is non toxic to fish and the bacteria will convert this to nitrite still Id start with cleaning your filter fairly often to keep it at a maximum level of filtration Keep up regular water changes This will work it self out eventually though i believe the maintanance of the tank will be the cause of the problem Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0bbie Posted August 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 OK, I think we have a plan. I have put a chunk of my filter sponge into his filter to give it a kick start We will continue to do regular water changes (using stress zyme) We will feed the fish every other day and only the tiniest amount I will keep an eye on the filter. We hadn't cleaned it yet as it really wasn't that dirty and flow was definately not effected. I will test the water every week. Hopefully I will see signs of progress when I test it again on Tuesday. I have tested the tap water and didn't find anything unusual. Have I missed anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpidersWeb Posted August 3, 2006 Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 While your ammonia may peak at 0.5-1ppm during a cycle, just make sure it doesn't go any higher than this, and keep changing water until it lowers. The accuracy of most tests is to 0.5, so if ammonia is detectable, its considered lethal. Anything higher than 0.5 is considered 'fish lethal' according to most resources I've read. So if its detectable, its considered lethal, which is why its recommended only lower cost/hardy fish are used for cycling such as neons etc For your ammonia to get to 6-8ppm I'd personally put my money on an ammonia based cleaner getting too close to the tank at some stage. I just can't imagine it getting THAT high without a cycle establishing unless you've been using Ammo-Lock everyday since the tank was originally set up. The fish would have started dropping off a LONG time ago if this was a gradual build up. Also I feed my fish about 2-5 times daily, so in your case overfeeding clearly is not an issue and even with a tiny $5 sponge filter a perfect nitrogen cycle would have started and easily maintained the tank in those conditions. From your post above it sounds like you've done everything perfectly If your ammonia is higher than 1ppm definately do some larger water changes though, most of the bacteria is on surfaces of the aquarium and not in the water. A change in pH etc from fresh water will be less stressful than such high levels of ammonia. I'm no professional here, if I'm wrong I'm sure I'll get shot down (I hope!!). Good luck with the tank! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted August 3, 2006 Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 Have you double checked your test kit? Maybe it is faulty, they do expire and can be affected be heat etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakyfish Posted August 3, 2006 Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 Yeah the test kit might be faulty Though a Ammonia reading of 6-8 is very possible and a regular thing I test water for customers and my own tanks around 20-30 times a week and the amount of times i have tested water that is higher then 5ppm ammonia is amazing and always they are losing some fish but not all The PH of the tank affects the toxicity of Ammonia quite alot the lower the PH is the the more ammonia is coverted to Ammonium which in itself isnt as deadly for fish though your test kit wont tell you which one it is Ammolock will not stop the cycling process and bacteria can still eat Ammonium If the bacteria couldnt eat it then every tank under 7 PH would not cycle Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Ammonia reacts with water to form ammonium hydroxide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 With the tank you are talking about, if its the same as the custom ones here. The flow rate sometimes will not slow down as the water will just skim across the top of the filter material. When I was selling these sort of tanks, we reccomended customers try a more coarse type of foam & if you have room add more bacterial products. eg; ceramic noodles, matrix & the like. Ammonia reacts with water to form ammonium hydroxide Yes Alan you are right, the excess waste... tends to form Ammonia Gas (NH3). Ammonia, in contact with water, forms Ammonium Hydroxide (NH4OH), a highly toxic substance. Its toxicity depends on temperature, pH, and water salinity. As Brad said too; the more acid the pH, more Ammonium Hydroxide is neutralized and so the ammonia toxicity is reduced. On the other hand, more alkaline pH means more dangerous Ammonia. Luckily, this substance is consumed by bacteria {Nitrosomonas} which in the presence of Oxygen transform Ammonia into Nitrite {NO2}, hence the need for good fish keeping practises. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 My comment was about a question I was not sure of the answer to. If ammonia reacts with water to form ammonium ion how can Ammolock convert it to ammonium ion when it is already there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakyfish Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 The PH of the water affects the relationship between Ammonia and Ammonium When the Ph drops below 7 then ammonia is conveted to Ammonium Ammolock converts it to Ammonium without dropping the Ph to below 7 Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 I don,t know but I would have thought the ammonia reacting with the water would raise the pH by the production of hydroxyl ions. If it locks up ammonia I would have thought it would lock it up tighter than that. I don't know, I have never used it and have no idea how it works, just curious. I am an old fuddy that avoids these additives and and tries to do things that will not produce an ammonia spike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cesarz Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Ammolock ( or alkyl ammonium chloride) when reacting with ammonia becomes alkyl ammonia (not toxic not soluble in water?) and ammonium chloride (not toxic). The hydroxide that was created when ammonia reacted with water becomes water again, so no pH change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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