Feeding malawi fry

[JoandWilly]

Whats the next best thing from bbs that we can feed just gone free swimming fry, she just spat them out today so dont have anything ready so need a quick solution. Any ideas would be much appreciated.

[Caryl]

I have never fed my fry anything different since I never notice they are there until I see one darting about under the rocks :roll:

They seem to nibble on any flake zooming past in the current. My Malawis get fed Sera cichlid pellets for Africans and spirulina flakes.

[Caryl]

I htought you weren't supposed to feed Malawis worms? I tried them on daphnia but they didn't seem interested.

[JoandWilly]

Worms are alright in moderation, blood worms are the better out of all of all of them, tubflex worms can cause bacteril infections, whiteworms has something to do with there fat content and the gonads which can harm the fish if fed to often. I'll just crush up some flake real fine till our bs eggs arrive.

[caserole]

:-? :roll: The fat thing in whiteworms rares it's head again rubbish(can't say what I would like to :lol:)

Sorry JoandWilly not meaning anything personal.

Malawi's are pigs thats why they get bacterial infections in there gut(bloat), however bbs are laxatives food for thought in more ways then one. :lol:

Good luck with the bab's JoandWilly.

[herefishiefishie]

I tried frozen cyclops as something different to add this time around to mine, its going good. Usually its a mixture, crushed flake being the main part of the diet with frozen baby brine & cyclops. With live micro worms for something different.

As for worms, I have a good Ad Konnings book, Enjoying Cichlids.

The following information is revealed,

Charley Gimes, 40 years experience with Cichlids. Public speaker on cichlids, killifish, livebearers. Faviourite topic live foods.

Devotes 2 pages to White worms alone,

I have never experienced any negative effects from feeding whiteworms to my fish. I feel whiteworms are especially good for conditioning small & medium-sized breeders. I feed white worms every day to my pairs of Julidochromis. Telmatochromis, small Lamprologus, killifish & rainbows to name a few.

He does state that feeding

a monotonous diet, especially of a kind that cannot be a natural food, is not a good idea.

&

A diet cntaining large amounts of whiteworms is, however, not recomended since it may lead to fatty degeneration. it should be fed in addition to other {live} foods.

Also he states this too.

A final word on live food

One of the most popular live foods available at almost any pet shop is Tubifex. This is a thin, red worm which lives in the muddy substrate of rivers & is collected in areas where collection is profitable. Unfortunately these areas are found in heavy polluted rivers. Th e pollution in these waters is not restricted to waste water from housing areas but also includes industrial wastes as well. Feeding such polluted worms to your fishes means that your exposing them to various diseases. Therefore take this advice.

NEVER FEED TUBIFEX

I never use Tubifex. I will never know for 100% how clean the pond is the lives come from.

As for the frozen blood worms, well most come from Asia, so no thank you.

Same book, by Kjell Fohman

They are sourced from stagnant ponds & feed from mud, including when this contains chemicals which are toxic to some fishes, especially to Malawi & Tanganyika cichlids.

Induces reactions in about 30% of persons coming into contact with them

{Liebers, 1991}

Malawi's are pigs thats why they get bacterial infections in there gut(bloat), however bbs are laxatives food for thought in more ways then one.

I am more inclined to believe that Bloat is different. Maybe what you have seen is a fish struggling to digest the sh#t food it has been fed, very different to Bloat the disease...have a read of the link.{No offence}

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/malawi_bloat.php

Most researchers support the view that this protozoan resides in the intestines of healthy fishes, but can proliferate to harmful numbers under stressful conditions. In larger numbers, this parasite will cause blockage of the intestinal tract. This is probably responsible for the fish's lack of appetite. As the parasite grows in numbers, it becomes invasive, moving beyond the intestine by punching holes in its walls - causing the fish to bloat. Note, fish die from Bloat not because they starve to death, but because of the damage inflicted upon their organs as noted above.

Frenchy

[caserole]

Yes I argee with everything you have said, bloat is caused by blockage in the intestines (it is sugested that malawi cichlids have thiner intestines and are more in cline to suffer from blockages especially .. paste what you have said but include bacteria as well).

The thing I have with people saying that white worms are fatty. it they just say it, then quote some book that just says it or quotes a professer with heeps of knowlage but he just says it - maybe with an addition in my experiance - but were's the proof!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol:

don't take it personaly Frenchy but you have said these things before and you are not coming up with FACTS, neither do the experts just "IMO" OR "IME".

Only if there was a report made of the scientific analysing of white worms then it would be settled

Then we would learn they are 18% fat(high ) of which most is fatty acids , not saturated animal fats.

but I've said that before too :lol: (no proof)

I figure you may agree with this, fish or fry feeded alot of 1 type of food is not good for there long term health and you should try as many foods as you can think of, even different shop bought foods - home made food fine grated them growned to a fine mash for fry, live food can be frozen if your worryed about contaminating your fry but freezing will not kill all bacteria if that is a concern, it just means you feed a very small amount at any one time(particularly with regareds to malawi cichlids).

:lol: I've been doing a lot of study lately into the treatment and dose rates for different diseases, :-? it's been mind numbing at times web page after web page after... then just when you thing you've found all you need you find a contradiction and have to dig deeper.

Anyway hopefully you have gained some ideas what and how you can feed your fry JoandWilly or ideas for the total health of your fish.

It can be testing thou, was in my fish room for some time today and each time I when past the tank with young angelfish I feed them. There so greedy, live bbs, this flake , that flake, frozen bbs, discus bits, little red shrimps(i collect localy), mozy riglers, daiphnia, more flake, white worm, cat fish pellets, more flake.Couldn't be bothered grinding up earth worms today so they can b..... starve :lol:

But they did only get a pinch at a time verity - little and often, as much as you can manage.

good luck

[Pegasus]

Stu said:

The thing I have with people saying that white worms are fatty. it they just say it, then quote some book that just says it or quotes a professer with heeps of knowlage but he just says it - maybe with an addition in my experiance - but were's the proof

This is such a classic line.. so good in fact, that it should be framed and posted for all eternity

It has been said so many times that one can become anything they want in cyberspace.. and many of these so called "expert quotes" from so called experts in the field, are just the pickings from other peoples brains.. and in many cases not from hard out study or experience.

Who wrote most of the books that have been published over the last decade or so..?

Some person with a fancy name perhaps.. plus possibly a few letters behind his title.. (nd I don't denounce such persons.. as they must have done "some" research.. plus writing and editing is not easy). but then comes the second question..

"Where did these guys get all the info from...?"

Invariably from right here off the forums and sites that we all have contributed to over the years..

Many of these "quoted experts" are using info that is now freely available off the net.. but are "so" often quoted as being the last word on the subject.

Many denounce the old books as being dated and not worth reading... but these authors had no Internet, and wrote their findings from true experiences and trials in many cases... some of which took decades.

BTW:.. All todays findings on worms and live foods were well known back in the late 1950's, but todays "experts" recon they have made new discoveries.

Tubifex (live).. was fed by millions of aquarists world wide.. as were White Worms.. all with no adverse effects.. if fed correctly and in moderation.

[herefishiefishie]

Can you read what I posted properly please, Charley himself states that he has used white worms for years, no problems. :roll:

When he says this

a monotonous diet, especially of a kind that cannot be a natural food, is not a good idea.

It is common sense, I can't imagine eating curries for every meal, to be a good thing.

I feed white worms myself, as a treat, live foods help bring some fish into breeding condition.

As for researching the internet, yes good for you. I do too. But be very careful, as any Joe can host a website & post what he believes. I tend to just stick with a few, that are by guys who were around before the net. Or have degrees in such things as Biology, or in George Barlows case head of the Department of Ecology & Evolution, State of University New York.

Pegasus stick to facts yourself too thanks,

Many of these "quoted experts" are using info that is now freely available off the net..

Can you prove that. Maybe in NZ your book collection is limited,

I can get any book, written by numerous editors over the last 30 years. I can get one book where most cichlids are still called haplochromis & fish lke Altolamprologus weren't even invented{Calvus73} One of my favuorites written by Barlow has over 700 references, ranging from the 50's right through to late 90's.{references were from other books, journals, universities(Ecology, Biology, Itchiology...) journals, Yet for some reason not one care of Joes fihies website}

The cichlid side of things is still new, exciting & on going of course there wil be new findings. I hardly believe a guy with 30 years experience, a major in biology is going to listen to one guy on the internet, & if he did go hmmm, will lets test the theory first, it is his/her reputation on the line.

Give these guys credit ah, most were scientists before they got into cichlids, they aren't hacks. Add to that 30 years in the trade, studying cichlids, diving the lakes, observing behaviors, dissecting cichlids, one guy, his Ph. D. thesis on the rock dwelling cichlids of Lake Victoria.

I never believe anything I read either, I used to use blood worms, lost a few cichlids one day no reasonat all, I lost alot in one tank suddenly. A guy at a shop told me about how blood worms come about, he also showed me a rash he gets from handling them, so I researched myself. Wow 30% of humans have allergic reactions to them. Thats a fact.

Another observation, anyone work in a lfs? I have heard this one often all my cichlids just died. Sometimes dirty water... A number of times its I went to the creek & caught some feeders, threw them in. Sure they have done this before, or they will say the native fish; eg; Barra is fine.

We all agree that is bad, fish carrying diseases from the river, yes.

So why feed the fish Tubifex worms :lol:

The asians swear by them, I have said this before. Discus, Quicker growth rates, breed better numbers quicker, but Discus adults only good for couple of years, then they are worthless. But who cares, already made the money off them, always new adults to take there place. Fact. :lol:

But hey feed your fish what you like, I know that looking at my fish I am doing the best by them. I have some cichlids that are rare, well here anyway & they weren't cheap. The bottom line is why take the risk? Pity I can't find the study done by Flroida University, but hey I am sure soem will shoot that down too.

Frenchy

[Pegasus]

Frenchy..

Would you agree that more has been published on the net about fish in the past five years.. that has been put into print in the last 100 years..?

Nobody is running these guys down.. certainly not me.. but if we believed "everything" that was said.. then nothing would ever get done.

You "might" be allergic to blood worms.. but millions use them with no probs.

If you posted today that your fish had suddenly developed worm like growths coming from the top of its head after feeding bloodworm.. it would be world news within seconds.. and so blood worm would then become a taboo food to feed out fish.

By the end of the month, someone, somewhere, would be posting that some expert on a site in NZ said that their fish had these "enormous" growths coming out of... etc.

So easily done

It would be true to say that any modern publication on fish has used findings from hobbyists on the net.. which was basically my point.

None of the books would exist if it were not for the hobbyist.

Bill.

[Fee]

The newest book in my collection is Gerald Bassleer's "the new illistrated guide to fish diseases", having met this man personally and also from his extremely good credentials, as a biologist specialising in ichthyopathology & 25 years experience as a reasercher in the feild of fish medication and fish food development, I would be confident to say that his excellent knowledge and experience which are reflected in his book are based on actual research & experince, rather that something he learned off hobbiests on the net. I think the same would also be true of most published authors in the feild of ichthology. Much is written on the net, much is conflicing, only a very fooldhardy individaul would risk their reputation publishing something learned secondhand through such a variable source.

In regards to fat content in food. It's not that hard for scientists to test for, I'm sure someone will have taken the time with whiteworms. It is always best to feed your fish food which most closly resembles that which they would naturally eat in the wild. Just because I can eat something & sometimes even enjoy it does not mean it is good for me physically or nutritionally benefical to me, eg McDonalds. Mbuna do recieve small amounts of protein in their natural diet from small crustatea that are found amongst the algae that is their natural diet, however they are herbivores and their digetive tract is set up to process food as such.

Baby Afican cichlids can be fed powdered fry food/ BBS/ Liquid Fry foods, but usually take spirulina based food quite early, I have had good sucess with Micron, Cyclops powder & easiliy dissolving spirulina tabs. I'm too lazy to hatch BBS and have never found it necessary with Mbuna.

This is just my opinion, & I don't expect anyone to write a book based on this.

[herefishiefishie]

To late Fee, :lol: parts of what you said is already in books.

What we are talking about is African Cichlids too, Bill. Completely different to American Cichlids, tetras....A cow has four stomachs to digest grass, a mbuna's intestines are 4 times longer than its body & have not much of a stomach. A simple notion of, lions don't eat grass, cows don't eat meat. The teeth structure on mbunas show that they are designed to scrap algae. Hardly an observation by a hobbyiest on the net either.

Example of studying, my gf is studying to be a RN. With essays, all points are to be referenced, internet references are frowned on. Unless they come from a mims source, or documents from University findings. So she can't write this drug is bad for you because the RN at gold coast uni said so. Do you get the correlation. Fee is right.

Would you agree that more has been published on the net about fish in the past five years.. that has been put into print in the last 100 years..?

Yep sure would. African Cichlids weren't even thought of back then, neither were canister filters, glass heaters....

Of course findings change, they still find new species, & re classify old species, whats your point?

Look at the advancements of our own human studies. I think that the Ichthyologists, Biologists & the like that are in the lakes, universities & the like, are the ones that leach the information that end up on the net, not the other way round.

Example is Kjell Fohrman hosts the largest scandinavian aquarium website, www.zoopet.com & is also publisher of Back to Nature books. {TA DA}

Would you agree to then that our rivers & lakes are more polluted to then since say 100 years ago? I remember when NZ never even had Giardia. My poor old man got it twice in a year, now the only water he gets is in beer. :lol:

My point? sorry, with tubifex & blood worms, in laymans terms. If you wouldn't drink the water these guys live in, why feed them to your fish then?

Bill would you feed blood worms to Tropheus then? They are very similar to mbuna? As original stated this topic was on feeding Malawi fry.

If you posted today that your fish had suddenly developed worm like growths coming from the top of its head after feeding bloodworm.. it would be world news within seconds.. and so blood worm would then become a taboo food to feed out fish.

If I read that I would say crap. It would lead me to ask the person involved questions. Leading me to the correct answer. How many times have I heard dribble from customers for why there fish have died, the to ask a few questions & find a different & correct answer.

That statement is rubbish, when you read the net, forums, fish diseases & the like, examples of leftfield comments are seen all the time. I remember someone saying they removed a dead white fluffy mass from there tank & it stunk. It was a dead body. How many people said it was other things :lol: Those in the know, know better.

As I stated earlier I don't believe everything I read, I ask questions, probe & annoy, :roll: ah Brad? He can 2nd that, I have pissed off my fair share of people because I am prepared to read up, spade is a spade, question & study. Not who moved my cheese.

It would be true to say that any modern publication on fish has used findings from hobbyists on the net.. which was basically my point.

You say that like it is a statement of truth. Can you base that comment with references & facts please.

I think no, why?

Most of the cheap ones are rehashed from older editions, or other books. Most cheapies use the same photos, writtings... have you noticed that?Also the cheapies are aimed for the general market, those starting out. They are broad, with basic facts to get people started & interested. Most cheapies haven't changed at all in "years" Except if a new colourful species is found, then its picture is thrown in.

None of the books would exist if it were not for the hobbyist.

Depends on the type of book,

Some of the cheaper no frills ones, with basic information in them yes, I have an old Barrons book only a couple of pages on African cichlids, Johanni, feeding

Live & dry food high in roughage

Tropheus

high in roughage. Never any red mosquito larvae, Tubifex, or beef heart!

From an old basic book, funny that.

For the ones written for those that are more experienced, keen to learn more, then No.

How many hobbyists are going to run out & grab

"The Cichlid Fishes" Natures Grand Experiment in Evolution. 328 pages, about 10 pictures all up, only a few in colour. Not many :lol:

Most of the good books retail here for $90 plus easy. The really good ones $140. Bit out of range for most Hobbyists. Some fanatics will buy them, I would of been lucky to off sold 20 such books in my 3 years at LFS. Thats how I got the ones I do, staff discount :lol: They are good to use as references to show customers.....

A question for Brad, how many books like this do you sell in a year? Just incase I can't sell books.

Speaking of such, Bill what am I meant to believe in the books? Don't worry you don't have to answer that part.

Frenchy