Registering Breeds

[PENEJANE]

Ok I have read the page on this site that says about registering fish breedings and what not and I can say I am no lawyer and I can't understand it. So could someone make it more simple for me.

I was told by Alan last night that once my betta and cory fry are 30 days old (from free swimming stage) that I can register the breeding for this year or something like that but I would like to know how to go about it.

Do I have to take photos to prove I have the fish and that they had babies as my camer doesn't allow me to get pictures that close. Are there any forms I have to fill out? Who do I contact.

Cheers

PeneJane

[Billaney]

Hi Penejane

you have to have the fry 30 day there has to be 10 of them and they have to be sighted and verified ( normally by your clubs breeding coordinator ) they also have to be registered withing 60 day of being free swimming. There is a form to fill out and sign a copy can be found in the year book or if you can't find one i have it in a soft copy and can e-mail it to you.

Hope that helps

Paul

[peanuts]

does the sighting have to be by the clubs breeding co-ordinator or just by any club member.

and to how much trouble do you have to go to prove there are ten, ie trying to locate the fry/offspring if in a planted will covered community tank.

[Caryl]

Pref. the coordinator but others will do I would guess. You must be able to count at least 10.

[Alan]

As you are a member PJ of the NZKA, have you any other members down there?

If so, they can vouch for you.

If not, photograph of the fry at 30 days plus will do sentbto Kevan with the details.

In fact any member of the FNZAS will do for your witness as well.

NZKA being a postal club and having only one meeting a year, are the only ones that can register in this way.

If you cheat, you are only cheating yourself.

This is not addresed to you PJ but to those that read it.

OKay??

Alan 104

[Alan]

Peanut said

does the sighting have to be by the clubs breeding co-ordinator or just by any club member.

and to how much trouble do you have to go to prove there are ten, ie trying to locate the fry/offspring if in a planted will covered community tank.

As the club, other than the NZKA have a designated b/c or a delegate of him, these are the ones to check them.

Quite a few years ago, a certain member had a "friend" check his fish and went on to win the trophy.

I was asked by the clubs President to investigate the truth of the matter, and on going around with the Pres to the entrants place, found that it was impossible to have bred that number of fish, and didn't have half of the ones claimed.

It was too late to take back the trophy but the said member was not affiliated to the FNZAS or his club again.

When inviting the co ordinator to check the numbers, it is manners to have them in clear view to make the visit as short as possible, remembering that they do this in their own time.

If you have them in a planted tank, catch out the required 10 plus fry and place in an icecream container.

The parents must both belong to you and be in your possession at the time of free swimming.

In other words you will not qualify if you go to the LFS and get a prego mollie or a carrying malawi or similar and have them drop in your tank.

Likewise killi eggs from another member hatching does not constitute a breeding.

The fish have to be in your possession when they lay the eggs.

With some species of killi it is understood that the parents may no longer be alive at the required time.

Allowance is made for this.

Hope this helps for those that don't know, or who are new to the breeding programme, and remember, these fish can be bred again that year and be entered in the Rebreed Competion, and any following year after that, but only once a year, for this trophy.

This competion was instigated to protect the hobby in case of the powers that be, close our borders down from imports.

It could happen.

Alan 104

[PENEJANE]

ok the only people that I know of that are down this way that are with the NZKA (I think) is southern man (dunners) and werner who I haven't seen on here in ages so I don't even know what he is up to these days to be able to vouch for me. I am unable to take a photo of 40day old betta fry as my camera isn't capable of that closeup. Also I was told that it was 30days from free swimming not 60. If its 60 days then yeah I may be able to get better pics hehe.

So I guess I am kinda stuck with verifying my fish at present. Untill I manage to get a much better camera to take the photos.

Cheers for the info though. Very interesting.

PeneJane :bounce:

[Billaney]

Also I was told that it was 30days from free swimming not 60. If its 60 days then yeah I may be able to get better pics hehe.

PeneJane :bounce:

it IS 30 days from free swimming they then become eligable to be registaed and this had to be be done before there 60 from free swimming.

see rules 5-7 here : http://www.fnzas.org.nz/breeding_scheme/rules0/

[Billaney]

If not, photograph of the fry at 30 days plus will do sentbto Kevan with the details

NZKA being a postal club and having only one meeting a year, are the only ones that can register in this way.

Alan 104

This is news to me Alan , I've never seen any referance in the year book or on this site's info page saying the NZKA members have any more rights than any other FNZAS menber ??

[Alan]

Take a minute from your busy breeding Paul and think of it.

All clubs, except the NZKA have monthly meetings and are localised in their area.

The NZKA: One meeting a year and scattered from Dunedin to Auckland to England.

How pray tell me, does a breeding co ordinator selected by the club, check the members breedings??

The problem arose years ago when the only people to check were registered FNZAS judges.

This was found to be quite ridiculous except in the bigger areas.

We of course had more judges, but there was one Chch member who lived on the West coast. was a judge expected to travel that far to check his breedings.

I don't think so.

Another member that I know very well, lives in Whakatane, and his nearest judge was Tauranga, was that judge expected to to the two visits required to check a breeding of guppies, once again I think not.

It was then agreed that the breedings could be checked by another member of the FNZAS, and as when a person joins the NZKA, so does the spouse automatically become a member of the club, (family member).

This arose when there was a very prolific breeder near the bottom of the South Island who's nearest FNZAS member was in Dunedin, once again impractical for examination from an FNZAS member , so the Breeding scheme as slowly over the years evolved to what it is now.

Those rules are for about 99% of the registered breeders at the moment, and the allowances for a lowly 1%, so now you see how it works for the "lonely ones".

Alan 104

[PENEJANE]

Ok well my betta fry are now a week old (from free swimming) So if I was to do 35 days from now to be safe I could get Werner to come check

that is if I can get a hold of him lol Apart from him all I have is Southern Man in Dunedin. I can see now why a lot of people probably don't bother with registering as they just don't have the people to vouch for them or the ability to take the photo to prove either lol. I guess I could put them into a jar and put my licence behind it as proof but no one has seen me (apart from MRSkz) to prove that its still me! haha.

Oh well I am sure we can figure something out in the next month

Cheers

[Billaney]

Take a minute from your busy breeding Paul and think of it.

All clubs, except the NZKA have monthly meetings and are localised in their area.

The NZKA: One meeting a year and scattered from Dunedin to Auckland to England.

How pray tell me, does a breeding co ordinator selected by the club, check the members breedings??

The problem arose years ago when the only people to check were registered FNZAS judges.

This was found to be quite ridiculous except in the bigger areas.

We of course had more judges, but there was one Chch member who lived on the West coast. was a judge expected to travel that far to check his breedings.

I don't think so.

Another member that I know very well, lives in Whakatane, and his nearest judge was Tauranga, was that judge expected to to the two visits required to check a breeding of guppies, once again I think not.

It was then agreed that the breedings could be checked by another member of the FNZAS, and as when a person joins the NZKA, so does the spouse automatically become a member of the club, (family member).

This arose when there was a very prolific breeder near the bottom of the South Island who's nearest FNZAS member was in Dunedin, once again impractical for examination from an FNZAS member , so the Breeding scheme as slowly over the years evolved to what it is now.

Those rules are for about 99% of the registered breeders at the moment, and the allowances for a lowly 1%, so now you see how it works for the "lonely ones".

Alan 104

I see your pratical point there Alan and i agree its very hard for some people living in more isolated areas to have them checked BUT again i ask where is it said the rules only apply to 99% of members. You say i was agreed NZKA could just take photo's etc, but i don't see that in any rule or ammendment ? You use the example of someone who cheated that you cought out and said they are no longer members of the FNZAS but it was too late to take the trophy off them, thats seems crazy too me how about the poor person who "did" follow the rules came 2nd and missed out, in your scenario what is to stop that happening again ?

Sorry Alan but i firmly belive unless the rules are changed by the FNZAS nd public posted before to year comp starts , That the rules sould stand as advertised and if you can't comply for whatever reason then thats it .

Rules are for 100% of people not those its conveniant for. Sorry

[PENEJANE]

So since I can't get a breeding co ordinator to come and vouch for my breeds I can't take part in the breeding scheem?

If thats the case then that sucks because I am not expecting someone to go out of their way (drive for hrs) just to come and see some baby fish nor am I going to pay their flights/petrol.

Guess I won't be taking part then.

Thanks for all the info guys.

Cheers

:bounce:

[Alan]

Paul you don't seem to undersand that all members are a breeding coordinator in the NZKA, due to the aforementioned facts.

So it dows apply to all members of the FNZAS, in fact it is harder foe a NZKA member than a "normal" club member.

The photographic evidence was suggested at the last FNZAS as an aid for those members who did not have access to a club breeding coordinator.

The scheme is meant to encourage breeding of the different fish, for the benifit of the hobby, and trophies and rewards are there as an incentive.

Concerning the member that was caught out, yes, I whole heartedly agree that the second place person would be a bit miffed.

In fact very miffed, if I recall correctly, I was very very miffed.

At one stage of the evolution of the Scheme, it was left to the rules of each club to work with.

One club only had to have one fish, YES, one fish to qualify.

Another club had to have their fish for 90 days, so you can see how things have gradually progressed from the beginnings.

I would push each new club that joined into the rules that are basically what we have now, and then when Kelly Rennel took over from me, the first thing he did was to make ALL clubs have to follow the same rules.

He was also the instigator of the certificates now available, and being computor literate worked out a brilliant way to correlate all the information.

My efforts were done with a typewriter and lotsa paper and folders.

I personally think that if the present scheme Coordinator could keep in touch via this forum and also with any entrants, more understanding of how things work would encourage more entries into the scheme.

When I was coordinator, I was very aware that being in a priveledged position I had to tread very carefully and have an independant judge.

This was done monthly by a member of the Waikato club who was a travelling salesman and used to call in here when in the area to check out the local successes.

In fact it was him that pointed out that I had baby Ctenapoma ansorgi in my tank.

So no one is being differently treated for their benefit.

It all boils down to the fact that somehow, everyone is able to partake in the scheme.

Alan 104

[Billaney]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this Alan, i take your points and anyone is eleigable to reg breedings but unless the rules are followed cannot compete for the trophies, and as for all NZKA members being breeding coordinators, rule 11 says any breeding coordinators ARE NOT eleigable.

I know the comp changed over the years and thats great but unless the published rules change how is anyone anywhere to know what they can and can not do, as you yourself said need 1 or 10 fish for 30 or 90 days ?

This is the first year i have entered any breedings and for the first 9 months thought very little or nothing about any comp, but one night when i could not sleep i read the rules thought it sounds like funand after talking to other club members thought i'd give it a go, Now if those rules are meaningless then the whole comp is meaningless and defeats the reason it was started, ie keeping fish species in new zealand.

[PENEJANE]

Ok I don't want this to turn into a fish slap fight. I respect the rules and I will stick by them. If I am unable to register a breeding because I am not able to get someone suitable to vouch for it then thats my tough luck for living so far away lol.

I do understand what both of you are saying and agree with you both which makes it a difficult situation because NZKA is NZ wide and what not so it is difficult for these members.

I thank you both Paul and Alan for your input but I don't want to have people banned or feelings hurt because of this.

I am sure we will work something out.

Cheers

PeneJane

:bounce:

[Alan]

Billarny said

rule 11 says any breeding coordinators ARE NOT elegiable.

That rule refers to the NATIONAL B.A.C. who is Kevan Rowe of the Kapi Mana club.

Before him Rob Torrens

Before him Kelly Rennel

Before him Alan Wakelin

Before him Bill, sshheeze can't remember his name

Seems strange that the club that he belongs to hasn't been informed by "the man at the top".

Why not get in touch with your delegate to the Fed. to get in touch with the appropriate FNZAS officers to approach your problem and see if it can be rectified to your satisfaction.

You seem to think that it is a benefit to the NZKA members above other FNZAS members.

IT'S NOT

It does however enable then to partake in the Scheme which is what it is all about.

Alan 104

[Caryl]

The reason for the breeding scheme was merely to encourage more members to breed their fish.

I will bring up your points at the next exec meeting Billaney. Perhaps we need to add more information or make things clearer in the YB.

[PENEJANE]

who is the FNZAS breeding co-ordinator? Maybe I can contact them and see what they can do. I would really like to register my breedings (my first time for bettas and corys obviously) as I think that displaying the certificates to future customers (when I open up my mini shop) that it would prove to some extent that I do well with my fish and that they are localy breed by me and not brought in. Just a thought.

So yeah if someone could point me in the direction of the person that I can speak to about this that would be great.

Cheers

:bounce:

[Billaney]

who is the FNZAS breeding co-ordinator? Maybe I can contact them and see what they can do. I would really like to register my breedings (my first time for bettas and corys obviously) as I think that displaying the certificates to future customers (when I open up my mini shop) that it would prove to some extent that I do well with my fish and that they are localy breed by me and not brought in. Just a thought.

So yeah if someone could point me in the direction of the person that I can speak to about this that would be great.

Cheers

:bounce:

its Kevin Rowe his details are in the "Officers" page

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/officers/

{edit=cees]changed details to link [/edit]

[kevin_wgtn]

Hello All

I am the current FNZAS Breeding Scheme co-ordinator. Now firstly, I would like to say that when I accepted this position - I was NOT handed "The complete guide to accepting FNZAS breeding scheme registrations". Therefore I have also had to interpret the rules in the spirit of fair play - and when in doubt, by checking with the FNZAS executive. If anything I state below is wrong, I apologise for my error - and if there is any continued disagreement please notify me in writing (email is fine) and I will have the matter decided by the FNZAS Exec (as per rule 12)

1st. To enter you must be a financial FNZAS mbr.

2nd. Registration is made by completing a FNZAS registration form, or by providing the same information in any "signed" format to your club breeding scheme co-ordinator.

3rd. Part of the registration requirements is completing the name of the Affilliated Club which you are a registered member of, and are registering the breeding under.

4th. The witness is therefore the Affilliated Clubs nominated club breeding co-ordinator, or ANY other person that the CLUB "nominates" or accepts as a witness for breeding scheme registrations.

5th. I will not accept ANY member witnessing their own fish.

Only when it is not possible for a nominated witness to "personally view" the fry has it been suggested that photographic evidence would be accepted. This method of registration is NOT offered to any single club or member - and may be subject to FNZAS Exec approval on a case by case basis. PLEASE NOTE: To my knowledge photographic evidence has not yet been required to be accepted - we have always found an acceptable Witness.

The intention is to make it as easy as possible to register your fish, using the "witness" to deter the accidental or deliberate breaching of the rules. At the same time the FNZAS exec do not have the time to witness/investigate all registrations - so we rely on the affiliated clubs to ensure registration details are accurate via their nominated co-ordinator or witnesses.

As far as I am concerned, a club may nominate 1, or 100 witnesses, and they do not have to be FNZAS members - but they do have to be accepted by the club accepting the registration. It makes sense however to use people who have some knowledge of fish - to witness the breeding of fish as per the scheme rules. However it is also intended that the club nominates an Official Breeding Scheme Co-ordinator who accepts the club members registration forms, stores a copy of the original form, and communicates as the club representative to the FNZAS breeding scheme Co-ordinator.

Now as for the FISH (the reason for the scheme), it is intended that you own the fish, and have either deliberately set out to breed them - or at least kept them for a period of time in conditions that have eventuated in their attempt to perpetuate the species. If the fry all die, or if only 1 or 2 survive - the chances of the species surviving are limited. Hence the nominal number of 10 fry was agreed years ago. This being a reasonable number of young accross all species of fish which would give them a chance to grow up and themselves breed. It was also agreed that to meet the scheme definitions of "breeding", the fry had to reach the age of 30 days old. This being a reasonable indication that the young are healthy, as well as a sign that they will continue to grow up and one day breed themselves.

Now we could all argue that some fish have more young than others, that some breed easier than others - and you are all correct !!! But we want to keep things simple so that YOU WILL breed your fish and perpetuate the species.

The requirement that the fish be registered (and witnessed) before they are 60 days old - is so that we receive a STEADY flow of registrations during the entire year. It also gives the "witness" a chance of seeing the members "Breeders" and "Juveniles" of the same species - indicating that they were bred by the member.

And finally - the only FNZAS member not eligible to enter the COMPETION - is the CURRENT FNZAS Breeding Scheme Co-ordinator. This is for obvious reasons.

[Alan]

Looks all good Kevan.

Thanks for the reply.

One correction there tho, or fleshing-out, the National B/S coordiator CAN register his/her fish that they have bred BUT they do not go forward on a points per trophy, but for personal attainment and numbers.

Alan 104

[Billaney]

Thank you Kevin , great to have that cleared up

[PENEJANE]

Umm how do I know if I am a financal member or not? I am only with the NZKA club?

[Modern Angl]

if the NZKA is affiliated with the FNZAS(and I think it is) then you should be a member, Alan will know the answer to that one for certain.