lduncan Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Come on Layton, I know you already know that stuff. What happens to nitrate? Maybe it gets turned into nitrogen gas, something a DSB does very well. Yip, mostly. What happens to phosphate? Maybe it is used by bacteria & single celled algae & is then skimmed. How is it skimmed when it's in the sand at the bottom of the tank? Why would the bacteria leave the sand en-mass? They're there for a reason. This isn't going to stop phosphate pooling in the sand bed. What happens to metals like iron, copper, manganese? Maybe they get eaten by some of your metal eating bacteria. They are also involved in the retention of phosphate and like phosphate, they accumulate in sediments. What happens to sulphate? Maybe a lot of different things can happen to sulphate, it's not going to be a worry. Well sulfate and sulfur is extremely important in many of the processes going on in sand beds. It's used by denitrifying bacteria to do their job, and, in conjunction with other bacteria, is also involved in iron's ability to bind and release phosphate. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Exactly like I said. Badness in, goodness out. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 That's a bit vauge. That's why I asked the specific questions above. Can you answer those? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 layton why don't you just leave things alone,and just let everyone get on with what we think is right. if a bare-bottom tank works for you "good". if my sand-bed tank is thriving good. i for one am sick to death of reading your posts of "your right" scientists etc. all good tanks and long living tanks it all comes down to husbandry, if your sand-bed is cleaned often,how can it crash. and why haven't these guy's sand bed tanks that have been running for year's and were talking years crashed, could it be they are well maintained. how many times have you had problems with your tank in the last 2 years? me and my sand-bed have had none. shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slappers Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 BLOODY WELL SAID Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 layton why don't you just leave things alone,and just let everyone get on with what we think is right. if a bare-bottom tank works for you "good". if my sand-bed tank is thriving good. i for one am sick to death of reading your posts of "your right" scientists etc. Where do I start with this one. Frankly, I don't care what methods you choose to run your tank. If you run BB you should know what it does and how it works. If you run SSB you should know what it does and how it works. If you run a DSB you should know what it does and how it works. What i'm doing is giving people the information so that they PERSONALLY can decide what is right for their tank. There is no need to ignore what these methods do, just because you don't like the sound of it. I'm not judging anyone based on the method they have chosen, but I won't let crap like "badness" in and "goodness" out stand, because it's just not how it works. all good tanks and long living tanks it all comes down to husbandry, if your sand-bed is cleaned often,how can it crash. I'm talking about using sand as a filtration method. You'll notice that the expert proponents of DSB system state that you DON'T ever disturb the sand bed. What you're talking about here is sand in a tank, not a filtration method, which is what i'm referring to. The reason why people clean their sand, is because of what sand beds by there very nature do. That is store things in the tank, which should be removed. If you keep the sand clean, then no problem. It's a big task but can be done. If you know what the sand bed does, then you'll see that doing this can also have other implications. Which is another reason why you should at least understand the basics of how the system you have chosen works. and why haven't these guy's sand bed tanks that have been running for year's and were talking years crashed, could it be they are well maintained. People have different ideas of "crashing". I call continual problem algae a crash, others might see that as part of setting up a tank. There are numerous examples of tanks where sand has caused issues, some by the experts, and many by private individuals. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 that's all good and well, but do you have to fill up 5 pages on this post about it. the guy just wanted to know if there was something else on the market that wouldn't get so thrown about by the flow in his tank. and you didn't answer my question on how many problems you have had in your tank in the last two years? shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Simple, because of the mis-information presented by others here. Problems, well, Off the top of my head Added a Deltec skimmer, which lead to rock shedding detritus, lead to problems keeping alkalinity up as bacteria activity was using it. Lost two corals to this, severely affected a few other corals. This caused a lot of problems. added new bulbs, caused bleaching, lost one coral to that. top centre glass brace snapped. return pump impeller blew to bits a few days ago, after 5 or six years running (and only two or three cleanings) Can't think of many others at the moment, there probably are some more though. BUT none of this has anything to do with how sand beds works. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 no that's pretty good info thou, and it didn't take 5 pages of the same old thing, you and your facts. shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 I'm not judging anyone based on the method they have chosen, but I won't let crap like "badness" in and "goodness" out stand, because it's just not how it works. You won't let it stand? Hahahaha so whats your plan, annoy everyone to death with pages of pointless links and worthless theory until everyone declares you the winner? Hahahahahaha, hows that going anyway? Hahahhahaha It reminds me of your attitude towards Zeovit, different subject same approach. Pages and pages and pages of misinformation and slander and what did you prove? You proved you have no idea what your talking about, or is that evidence, I always get them confused... Why don't I elaborate on badness in goodness out? There is no need, there is more than enough information out there that I am not imature enough to think that I will be able to change anyones mind on the subject. And besides everytime you post its BB 0 DSB 1, so your doing all my work for me. Go the DSB. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 added new bulbs, caused bleaching, lost one coral to that. Did you change bulbs (type/kelvin/wattage) or just replace like with like. I am about to rotate my bulbs and am VERY KEEN to avoid any problems. I am replacing my 20ks with 14ks and also adding what I hope are far more efficient reflectors. Perhapps reduce the amount of time they are on for the first few weeks? How long did it take before the bleeching happened? Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Did you change bulbs (type/kelvin/wattage) or just replace like with like. I am about to rotate my bulbs and am VERY KEEN to avoid any problems. I am replacing my 20ks with 14ks and also adding what I hope are far more efficient reflectors. Perhapps reduce the amount of time they are on for the first few weeks? How long did it take before the bleeching happened? Pie Went from 13 month old 20k's to new 10k's (both 400's). Dropped photo-period from 9 hrs to 4 hrs for a week when I did. Bleaching happened the first day after the change. All but the one coral recovered within a couple of weeks. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 You won't let it stand? Hahahaha so whats your plan, annoy everyone to death with pages of pointless links and worthless theory until everyone declares you the winner? Hahahahahaha, hows that going anyway? Hahahhahaha Pie You'd be surprised the PM's I get, from people who can not be bothered posting in these threads based on the attitudes of some on this forum. What you call worthless theory, is actually based on experimental data and findings, some done in controlled aquaria. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 And besides everytime you post its BB 0 DSB 1, so your doing all my work for me. Go the DSB. Pie It's not a war. It's how DSB's work! It's got absolutely nothing to do with BB methods. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 layton, SHUT-UP, fact and crap we are all quite able to get on the internet ourselves and fined all that info when we want it. shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Why does describing how a sand bed does it thing, cause so much trouble? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBlog Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 I personally think that Layton is quite an asset to this forum and bringing valuable information (whether it is right or wrong, that is up for debate). For sure, he at least stimulates thought. If you don't want to learn, think and debate the information, then don't respond. It's pretty simple actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 i never said he wasn't, his argueing post's can be quite humourous to read. shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 I personally think that Layton is quite an asset to this forum and bringing valuable information I agree, , I think Laytons very well versed, and as they say variety is the spice of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 You'd be surprised the PM's I get, from people who can not be bothered posting in these threads based on the attitudes of some on this forum. You'd be surprised the PM's I get too, in fact I am surprised at some of the PMs I get. But they are normally not complaining about some on the forum, just one... Pi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 The thing that amuses me sometimes, is that people complain that the information I provide is wrong, but they bring absolutely nothing to the table. They don't explain why they think the information is wrong, or what is really going on, or alternative refuting information. I don't make this information up, it's not my theories. It's professional experimental results produced by people more qualified than myself, and in fact anyone on this forum. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 I think it's the way you come across Layton, more so than what you say. You take a theory by someone (whether it be text book or net) and if it sounds kinda right to you, you argue that it MUST be true. You dont seem to listen to others because you are too caught up in these theories (and theories are often all they are, generally dictated by "well science has proved it right, so it must be right", you should know as well as anyone that in reef keeping, this is not always the case. what works for one person may not work for another). To some, it comes across as arrogant. I agree you definately add value to this site. Just think about how you come across when you write some of your posts (and no, Im not saying you're the only one guilty of it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 yep!!! i could get on hear and read off other peoples facts from the net too,but why bother everyone knows how to surf the net and can read for themselves when they want. shell. for the guy at the start of the post,try a heavier grade of substrate ie coral chip. i have heavy flow in one area of my tank and it doesn't move,plus it is easier to clean. shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tel Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 im going thru the same q? about what sand to use. have settled on the 2mm balls as i want to minimize shifting when i get my streams..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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