cracker Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Bloody hell this thread grew some balls whilst I was slogging my guts out in the city. Im still leaving it 3 weeks minumum. Mainly for Parasitic action. I dont really give a flying butthole about the bacteria in it, as the main display will auto balance that side of things. It also drops olut a lot of crap to the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 It is not wrong. I said I have yet to be told of a saltwater fish parasite that can survive several months storage in water, with no host. This was not wrong. Indeed I have yet to be told of a saltwater fish parasite that can survive several months storage in water, with no host. And most certainly, you have no examples of which NZ tanks they have showed up in, after several months storage with no host. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 It is not wrong. I said I have yet to be told of a saltwater fish parasite that can survive several months storage in water, with no host. This was not wrong. It would help if you wouldn't change the statement. I never said "with no host", i've said they may survive based on intermediate hosts such as copepods. You have been given an example of a parasite which can do this in this thread. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 The only way to safely 100% sterilise NSW is to boil for 20 minutes. THAT will kill everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 no it won't! You might have some bacteria from deep sea vents and they like boiling temperatures. They'll breed like mad and then kill all your fish when you use the water! [/sarcasm] in case noone noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misnoma Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 no it won't! You might have some bacteria from deep sea vents and they like boiling temperatures. They'll breed like mad and then kill all your fish when you use the water! I'm sure I read about this on the internet somewhere, it must be true! (in a blog most likely ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 I'm sure I read about this on the internet somewhere, it must be true! it is true, saw a scientific doco on it on sky. very interesting, they "hang out" in the bottom of the sea where volcanic lava spills out onto the ocean floor. they might genetically mutate and become the superbugs of the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0pius Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 I think someone should throw some cold water over lduncan and wasp or seperate them. :lol: /me says whilst slowly backing away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skuzza Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 I have read in a few books now that you should leave it for 3 or so weeks to let the plankton settle as it dies very fast and unless you supply the drum with and air stone to keep the water moving death is unavoidable.After the rest period you use the water out of your drum and leave the bottom 200mm or so behind as this contains the dead stuff.As for anything else the books dont say it will be a problem some dont even mention it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Im off to buy a bunsen burner..... :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 IMO anyway, 3 weeks will sort most of the parasites, but not everything. According to some articles I read, the free swimming stage of ich irritans is only viable for around 18 hours, so it won't take long to deal to them. However the free swimming stage of marine velvet, can do a lot longer, usually around 7-10 days. But in one lab experiment a few of them were found to be still viable after 35 days. However, if a person was unlucky, and this would be more likely at night, there is a possibility that your water may contain an ich parasite that had only just dropped off a fish. In this case, it would encyst in the container, remain in that form for up to perhaps 2 weeks, and then start releasing free swimming ones to go looking for a fish to infect. So in my opinion anyway, for total safety, a period of 8 weeks is needed. This should be no problem, it's just logistics of having enough water containers to go the distance. There are also an assortment of other parasitical nasties, besides ich, including a tick type thing I have found on sprats around the Takapuna ramp, that attaches to the fish gills. However all the reading I've done I've never found any of these parasites that can go 8 weeks with no host. Doesn't mean there isn't, but for now I'm working on 8 weeks. If Layton can ferret out something that can do more than 8 weeks, ( not a fresh water tapeworm though :lol: ) I'll give him full respect for finding it & adjust my holding period accordingly. There was an article once about putting bleach in NSW. Unfortunately I can't find it now , however the thrust of it was you can actually put bleach in the water, it kills EVERYTHING, and then you run an airstone in it for a few days it blows off all the chlorine, and apparently the water is fine. That's the parasite side of things. As for the issue of plankton die off, etc, it's often spoken about, but IMO if you get clean water, it's a non issue. I've never been able to detect ammonia or whatever in NSW while in what is meant to be the time "danger zone". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 ( not a fresh water tapeworm though :lol: ) I know you searched for the first one (call it a tester ), but you stopped searching after that. You should be a little more persistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Don't worry we won't mention your little faux pas again We'll call it a "tester" :lol: . Anyhow, what do you think? Any parasites we'd need to hold water without a host more than 8 weeks for? I'm excluding parasitic arthropods because I've never heard of a case in a NZ reef tank anyway. Not worth bothering with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 You can call it a faux pas, I know otherwise. ;-) Anyhow, what do you think? Any parasites we'd need to hold water without a host more than 8 weeks for? Don't know. There may be. There may not be. Again, I wasn't commenting on whether there are such parasite in water collected by hobbyists. Just saying that holding water for three weeks doesn't necessarily large ammounts of bacteria or parasites. I'm excluding parasitic arthropods because I've never heard of a case in a NZ reef tank anyway. Not worth bothering with. That's one large phylum your discounting there. Just because you've never heard of a case doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Don't know. There may be. There may not be. What!!! I thought you'd be out ferreting away trying to find one. Save me the work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 DP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 What about viruses? Are they even a saltwater problem? I know that autophagy in octopuses is brought about by "prions" in the water, but only takes hold when the octopus is under stress. Basically mad octopus disease. I dont know how you'd go about killing prions/viruses in nsw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 Don't know on that one, but viral related problems are not common in our tanks if the fish are healthy, it's probably not worth worrying about. But since some viruses can remain dormant for hundreds of years, it's not going to be worth trying to eliminate them by a withholding period anyway. Would bleach do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted December 14, 2005 Report Share Posted December 14, 2005 That's one large phylum your discounting there. Just because you've never heard of a case doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen. True. What withholding period should be used for them then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 True. What withholding period should be used for them then? Why even have a withholding period at all? That's what i've been getting at. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 Parasites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 Which ones? Can they host on the species found in our tanks? Is 3 weeks going to make a significant difference in their numbers to make a withholding period effective or worthwhile at all? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 Cant be sure of that, However we do know that saltwater ICH for natural reef tanks is an issue. If NSW from NZ waters happens to contain them which it may not, then at least we know we have covered the bad ones we know about for Reef tanks. Other parasites may survive 3 or 4 weeks but may be NZ parasites may not harm Reef tank inhabitants anyway. It is purely theory, but I like it and know it definitely kills and removes some things as well as settling crap out also. It is definitely beneficial to common Reef Tank Marine ICH. (As we know the cycle of this parasite. (Even if it only kills the majority). If we just dumped it in and it had heaps of Theronts for example...our fish may get swarmed and find it difficult to get rid of. If we leave for a term and the New NSW contains only a few...the fish should be able to cope and keep up immunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 Which ones? Can they host on the species found in our tanks? Layton Why even have a withholding period at all?Layton 5 pages later you saying you don't know? :lol: :lol: :lol: You a hoot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 5 pages later and you still don't get it. You're a hoot. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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