Pies Posted February 18, 2003 Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 Hi all! As some of you are aware I've been looking into keeping a Marine Reef tank for quite some time. The options and advice I have recieved has varied a great deal. Infact i've spent more time confused with contridictry information than I care to count. The technology for the marine hobby has changed quite drastically over the past 10 years. Also Marine fish keeping is much different than freshwater, so you need to 'un learn' some things. I have visited people with reef tanks, and taked to dozens online. Typically the more 'scientific' (read expensive) the tank, the better it looks. I have taken the success of other peoples tanks and come up with... Its expensive. Very. I've seen people talking about ideas for cutting costs, skimping on bits and pieces etc. I think that this is a reciepe for disaster. $5NZ per litre is an averge cost for a Marine reef not including stock. And a high technology option will go as much as $15 per litre (I have seen a $55000.00 1600ltr tank in NZ. I have done all my research into a 'reef' as opposed to a 'fish only'. Fish only can be a LOT cheaper, but requires lots of filtration, lots & lots. Do you need a protein skimmer? Yes, and it has to be big enough for you tank. I have not found any successful aquirums anywhere that don't use a protein skimmer. Do I need a sump? Yes. Gravity fed water cirulation is by far the most efficient and cheapest method. Also has EXCELLENT options for flow control etc. Do i need power heads? Yes. You will want to circulate the contents of your tank no less than 10x per hour, and 20x will harness better results. 6x is consider the least and can be problematic. Do I need Metal Halide lights? Only if the tank is deeper than 450mm and you want corals or enenmy. Do I need a chiller? Only if you are using Metal Halide lights Do I need a wet/dry filter? No. Live (seeded) rock is much better than a wet/dry. Wet/dry filters are 'too efficient', think "less technology, more biology". Do I need a computer? No, its a luxury option for people with a lazy 5k sitting around. It does take some hard work away but its not a requirement. Do I need a KalkWeisser stirer/reactor? Yes. Used to add calcium to evaporated water, will buffer PH and keep coral alive/healthy. DIY option abundant. Do I need a Calcium Reactor? No, but is usefull (expensive). Sorry about the woffle, but may be of use to those who are interested in setting up a Marine Aquairum. So, am I going ahead with it? Yes! Where am I at? I have brought a 700ltr tank ($500) & am DIY the stand ($200). I have a Deltec skimmer (2nd hand - $850). I have a RIO power head with sea swerl thingie ($0.00, gift). What do I need? Rock 100kg to start $1000.00 Sand 2x Bags $160.00 Metal Halide 250/400 watt 10000k x2 bulbs ($700 DIY, $1200 cheap new, $3600 high end) 4x 5ft Fluro tubes and ballasts + reflectors - $400.00 Sump (convert old 3ft fish tank - $0.00) Return pumps x2 Ehiem 4000ltr hr $800.00 RO/DI unit? Not sure... Kalkweisser? Not sure... Calcium Reactor? Not sure... Salt water? Not sure... Stock... The skys the limit!... Hope this of interest. Also anyone knowing anyone selling 2nd hand Marine equipment, have them contact me! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted February 18, 2003 Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 What's a "KalkWeisser stirer/reactor"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted February 18, 2003 Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 Don't forget to factor in your monthly running costs like power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 Forgive my spelling, its actually Kalkwasser: I stole this********* Even the most inexperienced hobbyist can easily make Kalkwasser. Kalkwasser is extremely beneficial for corals, coralline algae and many reef inhabitants. It also helps raise the pH level, which is needed in a marine and reef environment. It might come to a surprise that Kalkwasser, which is German for lime, does not contain any lime at all. The name comes from the main compound used: Calcium hydroxide. ************************ You need to make the Kalkwasser EVERY DAY for evaporation top off. However you can build a 'stirer' than allows for far less maintenance by dripping in 'fresh' kalkwasser daily etc. I am not sure exactly how it works but the Kalkwasser canot touch the air, as the gas exchange does somthing to it, not sure exactly. There are a few DIY options for this. I am no expert however I have seen them on almost EVERY reef I have visited. I think that just mixind the Kalkwasser by hand is fine, but gets boring as has to be done everyday (because of the gas exchange you can't store it, or it settles or something). Hope that answers your question? Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 Power is a cost I can 'absorb'. I also suspect that I will enjoy the Marine so much I will dismantle and sell my 2 freshwater tanks, therefore not adjusting my costs too much... I run 2x external filters and 5 4ft fluro on my larger existing freshwater. + its Co2 suplimented and I can use the Co2 system for the Calcium Reactor.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeves Posted February 18, 2003 Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 man! is it any wonder why the marine hobby is not very popular if you have to spend that much of a small fortune on all that equipment. Could you get some photos of the 1600ltr $55000.00. sounds unbeliveable... One day when I win lotto maybe I could consider it getting one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 Yeah its expensive, but like any hobbie (race cars, boating, sking, diving etc) it does cost money to do it correctly. Also remember that it will have a resale value too, so think of it as a 'non appreciating asset'. There are several 2nd hand options, which is what I am trying to do (buy 2nd hand). Also if you are handy there are lots of DIY options if you have the time/skill/tools. I don't have any photos of that tank, or many of the others I visited. Check www.thereefweb.com for a really nice reef tank and 'my template'. Get into it! You know you wanna! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janey Posted February 18, 2003 Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 Here is the web address for photos of the marine tank we visited in Auckland - http://www.aqua.net.nz/html/tank_pics.html It was very very impressive ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted February 19, 2003 Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 I had a thought while looking around at a pet store today. Instead of paying $50 for enough salt for 120 liters, what would be the problem buying a couple large bins, heading to the ocean and getting a few hundred liters of seawater once a month? I was thinking for me heading out to Kapiti somewhere and getting about 200 liters would be good for about a month worth of water changes if I turned my 200 liter tank into a marine tank. And, that would save about $100 per month in salt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennis Posted February 19, 2003 Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 i kown lots of ppl that do that they say it better than the made up suff to one guys got 15000l and he get it out of the sea as we live by the sea in tauranga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 The guy with the PICs above uses artificial sea salts. I asked him why, he said 'natural seawater' is better (casue its real), but quite a lot of haslte. He found it easier to use RO/DI & artificial. But he has used natural. The other 1600 ltr tank I know of here in Wellington, the guy ONLY uses natural sea water and has had nothing but problems with artificial (he did admit it was more likly a problem with him than the product though). I intend on using natural sea water (at least initially). BUT there is a catch... If you go get it, you MUST use it within about 4 hrs if its left standing with no airation. After 4 hrs the animals in it (plankton etc) will die and poulte the water. If this happens you can leave it for a week, then syphen out the good water and just not take the bottom inch. Obviously take care with any sediment in water you collect and check for obvious poultion. I am also going to take afish from the ocean and use it to 'cycle' my tank. I dive in wellington, so I am sure I can catch something small somehow Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilo Posted February 19, 2003 Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 I am also going to take afish from the ocean and use it to 'cycle' my tank. A small school of Spotties (Paketi) would be ideal - very hardy and should survive in tropical tempatures. For collecting seawater, I have seen a site somewhere recently where they just used a 12 volt bilge pump on a hose to pump the water up to containers next to their car on a wharf. Bets dragging containers up a beach. Get the water on an incoming tide upstream from any boats etc in a rural area and the water should be clean. Cheers Shilo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 Yeah pumps are good ideas, and for huge volumes of water makes sense however they do have a major disadvantage. The impellor on a pump kills/damages any thing in the water like Plankton/Shrimp etc. This is why it is reccomended that if you do build a refugium into you system that it should gravity drain into the tank, and pump from the tank back into the 'fuge. It is reccomended that if you use a pump, you should let the saltwater 'stand' for 7 days before using it, that way the dead/dieing life will sink to the bottom and can be left when you siphon out the good water. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peety Posted February 20, 2003 Report Share Posted February 20, 2003 I've just started a marine (3 months ago) Its about 280 litres and 1/3 of that is sump. Tanks and sump were custom built and cost $300 but would have been cheaper if I'd stuck with a shallow tank (mine is 70cm deep). Skimmer cost $350 new, light is from a grow shop (metal halide 250 watt) $220. Apart from me making a few stupid mistakes at the start I now have a crystal clear tank with 3 fish and mushrooms and anenomes. I have collected live rock from the beach. Nitrates are about 2 ppm. The dearest things were the fish.... (only just, skimmer is close but is essential). Cheap, works, and I can't wait to get to the beach next for some more rock hunting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2003 Nice work on the tank. I can't wait to get mine up and running. I've got some questions for you. 1. What type of fish did you put in? 2. Do you have any pictures? Sounds good to me. I've been warned away from using 'live rock' from NZ shores because of the high degree of 'silicates' (spelling?) and 'trace metals' in the rocks here. But I guess if its working for you and your fish are happy thats all that matters! Are you going to keep any inverts or fish only? 1 last question. If you could go back & start again, would you do it again? And if so what would you do differently? I would love to know what you've found from NZ beaches etc. I dive often so access to the ocean is no drama Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peety Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 I started with a percola clown, cheap, hardy and expendable. He went through a lot when I started firing everything up. I cycled the tank for 3 weeks adding nutrafin cycle regularly. Regularly tested water.... Added fish and waited 2 weeks.... Then bought 2 kg live rock from Janssens (just to start loading tank) I added some ordinary mussels from foodtown because I heard they could bring up the loading faster (ooooops!!!!) Mussels died and blew nitrates through the roof Dumped all water and seived sand (didn't touch filter and all levels came back within a week) (phewwww) Went on holiday and collected rocks 8) Brought back about 6 - 7 kilo (if I'd known I would have gotten more because they are spreading corallines like mad and I can get 3-4 times that many in my tank) Bought light because algae started growing on all rocks due to no light Bought skimmer since water began to cloud due to light Bought tang to eat the algae (which is now all gone) Bought mushrooms and anenomes which are just the bomb!! I would never make a deep tank again. (I can only just reach the bottom and can't reach the back corners :oops: ) I really enjoyed the way it came together. No rush. And no one off expensive item. I wish I had an idea for the layout before I started because I keep changing it and its hard to build the reef structures with everything living in the tank, I keep dropping rocks on live anenomes and coral. Sorry no pics since no camera....Its still a work in progress and i'm using lighting eggcrate for the scaffolding so theres quite a lot of that showing. The best of luck with yours... just go slow... my mistake was to try and rush it peety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 peety when stated a new set up it is better to cycle the tank for 6-8 weeks. you should also be putting all you rock in at once, because if you add new rock again the rock will go through the cycle and release ammonia and phostphates in the tank. The live rock at janssens is not live rock, all it is is base rock which has been cycled. live rock is not allowed into new zealand. If you add a mussel to the tank it will create ammonia, and that is how the cycle starts. If i were to start a tank again i would add most of the coral and then the fish. the main reason for this is that the fish cause a lots of waste so it is hard to get your corraline algae growing and keeping phostphates down is also a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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