herefishiefishie Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Firstly check what Africans you have. Most species are omnivores, herbivores.... live food can be bad for them,(have smaller stomach longer intestines) even though they will eat them. :roll: Beef Heart is a big no-no for all cichlids :evil: What I use for my Alto's is baby convict fry, as these breed like rabbits. Baby guppies...... Try to avoid feeder fish from shops as they tend to be high in bacterial diseases. Goldfish well these guys are the biggest carries of parasites, & carry other diseases including TB & for a fish are quite fatty. I have seen plenty of fish die from diseases caught off the humble goldie. Just becareful if you have the larger growing Malawi predators in with mbuna's, peacocks.....if the predators get a taste for live food they will turn on your other cichlids when they out grow them. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRSkz Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 why would you not feed beef heart to chiclids? I'm getting some dwarfs down and ALWAYS feed my guppies, cory's and bn beef heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickybabe Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 I was not going to comment as I think it has gone completely off topic butdog is domestic it still has that instinct to kill a cat I dont know if I completely agree with that comment, I could give you a lesson on Canine evolution and domestication but I dont think this is an appropriate forum to discuss that, however I do agree that what you have done is no different than a fisherman using a live bait on his line to catch a marlin, personally I wouldnt feed live food to my fish, but to each his own..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 Well u shouldn't feed beef heart to any fish. Fish are cold blooded, the only fat they can handle are those with a low melting point. Therefore fat from warm blooded animals(eg;beef heart) can not be assimilated. Thus is stored in the tissues, especially the liver. While on the "not to feed" bandwagon, :roll: Red mosquito larvae (sold as frozen blood worms) & live food wise Tubifex worms. Other good live foods, earth worms for bigger fish, smaller fish, brine shrimp, white worms. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BK Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 I would have to completely disagree with your comments on Beef Heart and I could well have the backing of most Discus breeders in the world. What trials have you done where are your results. I can look at the results Jack Wattle had in many books and still the results he reached are still beyond most people that keep fish. Facts please not your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 herefishiefishie said: While on the "not to feed" bandwagon, Red mosquito larvae (sold as frozen blood worms) & live food wise Tubifex worms. Can you please state your reasoning why the bloodworm and tubifex can't be fed?? Thanks Alan 104 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 :-? if fat is bad for your fish would you feed whiteworm, they are 18% fat and trimed beef heart only has 15% fat and gardenworms are cusions of white worms so the same may apply to them so why would you feed any of these ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monaro1 Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 i would like to know also. i have grown some pretty big fish (and very healthy)feeding them most of what you say i should'nt why Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 :lol: so have I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malawi_man Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 this frozen bloodworms/beef heart thingy only applies to MALAWI CICHLIDS maybe other rift lakes as well but anyway. live tubifex has heaps of bacteria so thats why you shouldn't feed them, if you feed bloodworms etc. too much to your AFRICAN CICHLIDS then they will get bloat and they could die. what are discus breeders going to know aobut african cichlids?? herefishiefishie i know has lots of experience in keeping african cichlids so i reccommend you listen to his opinions, i do feed frozen bloodworms to my africans sometimes but not enough to harm them, i find they improve colour in cichlids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 Why does it cause bloat ? blood worms are a natural sorce of food for them.they hatch in such large numbers over the african lakes they form clouds that can be seen from km's away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malawi_man Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 ok that i dont know 8) :lol: maybe hmmm naaa :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 :lol: Thanks for the entertainment people. :lol: You see discus keepers are a breed to themselves. :roll: The asian breeders for years have pumped their discus full of beef heart & live Tubifex worms. Western society has followed the trend. Why? Well the fish grow alot quicker, adults will then produce a great amount of spawns. Heres the "but" the fish themselves only have a couple of good seasons then the fish are stuffed, out to pasture or culled so to say. Not nice on the fish, but the profit has been made & the best of the off spring are there to take over. So who cares. (For BK benefit)I base this information on 3 discus breeders here in Qld, 2 of which have imported discus direct from asia & all 3 have been through asia & seen what the practises are over there. Between them 40 years plus of discus breeding. Anyone notice that discus are notorious for intestinal parasites, hexamita? Poor diet is one cause.... :-? Anyway..... BK;What I stated in previous post is fact, ever heard of a guy called Ad Konings? Just in case. 30 years experience with cichlids, 20 plus books, more than 30 expeditions to Africa & America. Underwater photo guru, uni graduate in Biology, DNA cloning human genes or something like that. If ever I was going to listen to a "cichlid" keeper it would be him. Read a book called Enjoying Cichlids, Ad Konings is the editor. The section in the book on food & feeding- is written by Kjeli Fohrman, ever heard of him? Just in case More than 25 years experience with cichlids. President of the Scandinavian Cichlid Association, editor of Ciklidbladet magizine, hosts the largest Scandinavian aquarium website- www.zoopet.com. Also publisher of The back To Nature Books. ever read those? good read. ps;Has kept discus too. :roll: Blood worms- Are very bad, why? They are found in the mud of stagnent pools & feed from the mud, including when this contains chenicals which are toxic to some fishes, especially Malawi & Tanganyika cichlids. (This is where the blood worms that you "buy" come from.) Also red mosquito larvae induce allergic reactions in about 30% of persons coming into contact with them(Liebers,1991). Bk cough cough. Quoted from Enjoying Cichlids........... (I have seen rashes on people caused by Blood worms) No quote here sorry, but have seen the rashes. :oops: :lol: Tubifex worms, lives in the muddy substrate of rivers. Chances are very high that these are polluted, as are generally collected from housing/industrial areas. Obviously feeding polluted worms exposes fishies to diseases, bacterial diseases..... as a footnote tublifex worms should be kept in cool, clean water, bit hard to tell if this practice has been maintained by collecter, distrubitor, lfs......some people can't tell between healthy or sick worms. Yes I have friends that feed these above to there fish & have no dramas, side effects.... then again some have had the odd so called unexplained death. I choose not too feed, reasons are stated above & some of my cichlids aren't cheap, or easy to come by. Why take the risk when there are plenty of other products on the market. Frenchy ps: As for white worms it is noted that these shouldn't be a large part of a fishies diet as it may lead to fatty degeneration. pps: Thanks Krib. I am lucky to know a few people who have been in the industry 20 plus years, I know nothing about cichlids compared to them & they are still learning new things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malawi_man Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 hmmm that took a while to read unless that was just a whole lot of junk then i think you do know what you are talking about. I have some expensive fish too like alto comps. (can't get calvus here :evil: ) and a few other rare malawi's/tangs. what are your expensive fishes?? oh yeah i feed my altos on frozen mysis shrimp and some flake sometimes is this alright. also i feed my fish in my mbuna/hap 800litre tank frozen shrimps sometimes (from the supermarket and their colour imporved after a week or so. a greshakei (white body and orange fins) started getting a blue tinge to him. oh yeah and are mealworms alright, dad breeds them in the garage for his birds, he just feeds them banana peels and they are just in this bran stuff, no pollution thanx in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted August 26, 2005 Report Share Posted August 26, 2005 Have about 10 different varients of alto's. White Calvus being my favourite. Yeah mine get the same, mysis shrimp, spirulina flake, live brine, baby convicts, guppie babies... It was a bit of a read eh, sorry about that. All comes from books/ knowledgeable fish keepers & sites from quality persons. The bloat question asked earlier is that mbunas are a graziers, eat all the time, so have small stomachs & long intestines, so it makes it hard for them to digest meaty products, thus they get what is called malawi bloat. Tropheus(tangy's) are probably the worst fish for this. (plenty of books & sites with information) I don't know about meal worms, I know people who use them on there Americans. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BK Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 Was there a case studie done on fish feed Beef verse not. Would love to see the results, would be a rest from listening to peoples opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 yes there was a studie done on feeding beef heart to guppys, but I have only herd about it not read , so don't know were to find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 would be a rest from listening to peoples opinion. :lol: Fish are cold blooded, the only fat they can handle are those with a low melting point. Therefore fat from warm blooded animals(eg;beef heart) can not be assimilated. Thus is stored in the tissues, especially the liver. Kjeli Fohrman As for trimed beef heart being a set % of fat, ask a Meat Worker how true that is. Try reading up on stuff by George W Barlow, George C Willams, both graduates in Itchology amongst other studies, the later also studies Ecology & Evolution. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 Fact; Alot of cichlids especially those in the rift lakes have become specilised eaters, eg; mbunas are a algae graziers, eat all the time, therefore have small stomachs & long intestines, so it makes it hard for them to digest meaty products. Hence a condition known as Malawi Bloat. BK I am sure you can look up that( Malawi Bloat) and read the facts :lol: instead of us listening to your opinions. As stated before the question was what can I feed "Africans", I know it was live food. But I was checking to see what types of Africans were kept, as there are other foods to avoid too. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 As to the % of fat in white worms and beef heart that I mentioned , they were the result of an analist ( sorry can't spell ) done by a research centre close to were I live, it was done for free so no report was written. What I didn't say was the amount of fat in beef heart can change dew to all sorts of reasons but the magotity of the fat IS STILL saturated animal fat . and the amount of fat in white worms would change too, BUT unlike beef heart worms have a high % of amino acids in them ( fatty acids you know omiga3 and alike ) they still show up as fats when analised thou. take it or leave it, poke fun at my spell , what ever you like, have a good day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted August 29, 2005 Report Share Posted August 29, 2005 Now where shell eye start. alan 104 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 As for white worms it is noted that these shouldn't be a large part of a fishies diet as it may lead to fatty degeneration I did post this up back on page 3. Beef heart is worse as its mamallian. Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freakyfish Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 Hey guys just a few things while i have been reading this post Try feeding them fat free beef heart from alan I dont think i have ever seen fat free beefheart nor do i think i will Beef Heart is a big no-no for all cichlids from justin Here he makes a valid point which is supported my a few diff cichlid keepers who are very renowned for their views on cichlid keeping Facts please not your opinion when justin quoted authors about his views on these foods he was showing you where he got his facts from if you want to dispute these guys findings i wish you luck Obviously bk you only read what you want you want to see Either way some people will alwasy have different results on different foods, I myself used to use bloodworms as a main part of my fishes diet but after reading alot of information decided to drop it down to only an occasional meal. I still get good growth rates and awesome colours from just varying the diet. Justin has a great deal of information regarding cichlids and i know of a few people that will take his word and love his help to anyone who wants to listen Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herefishiefishie Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 I'll drop those beers of to your shop on my way home Brad. :lol: Hope you have fun here Brad, this is a really good site. Maybe you should go to the welcome section & introduce yourself. & for everyone else, he is an Aussie, so play away. :lol: Frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted August 30, 2005 Report Share Posted August 30, 2005 Brad, the terminology"fat-free" is when all the 'see-able' fat and everything else is removed from the heart, to leave just the red(looking)meat, ok, it isn't fatfree, but it appears so. We in the killie fraternity OFTEN use that for conditioning our fish and as a supplement food for the young fish. Alan 104 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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