PENEJANE Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 I have got a number of fry which is comming up to 4 weeks. They are all in a tank by themselves with other fry. How can I tell a true virgin female? I thought that they couldn't breed untill they were about 3-4 months old (could be way off but read it in a book). I have some grey fry and the only way I can tell if they are female is from the black spot. Does that mean that they could already be pregnant if they have that spot? The golden fry I can't tell as their spot isn't black but pink/orange in colour and very hard to tell at such an early age. I am wanting some virgin females to breed with my snakeskin/cobra (what ever he is). cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faran Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Hi PJ, Common practice is to separate males and females as soon as you can sex them. This way the females never get "hit" and store sperm. As you probably know, female guppers can hold sperm packets for quite a few months and so therefore complete isolation from males in order to strain breed is necessary. Once you have decided which male to breed with you just pop them in a tank together for a few days and let nature take its course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted August 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 yeah I know that much but my males don't develop their special fin untill they are about 2-3 months old. So I can't sex the males as easily as I can the females. My 2ft tank has a divider in it now and I have a 22ltr fry tank. The fry in this tank is lucky to be 1 - 1.5cm in legenth. There are no males in there that are developed and able to breed yet some females have a black spot in the grey fry. Would they still be virgins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faran Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 black spot in the grey fry.... pass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted August 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 cool buzz so when can I put them with the male of choice? Like do I have to wait till they are of a certian age/legenth then put them with the male? Just that if I am wanting to really breed certian colours I want to get it right from the beginning cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faran Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 actually, that was pass as in, PASS! I'm not too sure yet. You should be able to tell males from females as early as one week, but I sure can't! Seriously have no idea until the gonopodial formation at 4-6 weeks. I plan on sending my females over to an all-girl tank with perhaps some fry on the other side of a divider. Still learning over here as well, so hopefully someone with more experience (I know you're out there!) can come along and set us straight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted August 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 That would be awesome I was thinking of putting all the fry that are of age to breed into the divided off section of my 2ft tank and adding the male I want with them for 1/2 a week but I don't want to put them in there to young. Wouldn't that hurt the girls ummm yeah hahaha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 When I separate them, I use three tanks. One from which I check the sexes, another for the boys, and the third for the girls. Any you aren't sure of stay in the first tank. If you see one with a black vent, - - female. An all silver belly, - - - male This can be done at a very young age, like in the first week. But keep and eye on the ones you have sorted to look for the reverse that you may have missed or made a mistake with. Keep your babies away from adult male guppies as they appear to get tiny tots pregnant just by looking at the young girls. You know what I mean. Alan 104 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted August 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 would the black vent be the tiny black spot at the back of them? I can only see that when the fish is swimming away from me. So if I was to put all my females in to the divided section of my tank with one or two males (the two that I want them to breed with) then I can have them pregnant from birth almost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 I don't and have never line breed guppys but I do know that you are supposed to wait until your female are quit large 30 to 40mm, that way the female will be able to produce in the first drop (? 26-30 days) small numbers of large and healthy fry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Hi PeneJane, What Stu is saying is correct if you want a decent result, as a female at three or four months will give you better results to work from than a first timer at a few weeks old. You say: So if I was to put all my females in to the divided section of my tank with one or two males (the two that I want them to breed with) then I can have them pregnant from birth almost? Almost is right... but what are you aiming for...? Just fairly good looking guppies.. or a large majority of Snakeskin or Cobra's.? Sure... the male "may" pass some of his genes down the line, but the results would be spasmodic, especially if you have "two" males in there, as you wouldn't have a clue which fish was giving the results you were after.. if any. If you do "have" some virgin females.. then it would be better to know what line they have derived from, as this will give you "some" indication of what results you will get. Just because a female has some fancy colours in the tail or body, is no indication that it will throw true to form offspring. Often a good sound normal female will give better results. The "female" is the one that is responsible for the outcome... as "she" is the fish that will carry both sets of genes onto the next generations, so the genes put there by the males are the ones that will be mixed with her own to give the results you see... so if "she" hasn't such a mixed up gene pool.. then often better results are seen earlier. If the V Females "are" from a Snakeskin line, then you would put two or three in with the best SINGLE male in a separate tank and see the results. If you are getting say... 25% good looking Snakeskins from the first drop, then you would separate the best of these... again into separate tanks of males and females. From here you would breed the best male from the batch back to the female parent, and the best female back to the male parent. This "could" improve the strain.. but is no guarantee. Then you could cross sibling to sibling to see the result here.. but as you can see, you would need lots of tanks and patience to do this, but if you are wanting fish that breed true.. then it is a process of elimination, unless you start off with true blood and a known gene pattern to start with. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted August 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 so basicly I am shit out of luck unless I get a whole pile of tanks set up which my husband would definatly divorse me over. Guess I am just going to have to go by pot luck and see what I come up with. Tonight I have seperated some females which I would like to breed with my snakeskin into the divided off section and thoes that I want to breed with the orange males and my solid black male is in the other section. Will see how this goes for the next couple of months Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 in a word NO,but you will only be able to concentrate on 1 colour form, any more then that and you will not do them justice and need more tanks. or you could ask for 1 large shallow (300mm ) tank that can be devide in to smaller tanks :lol: you may have to make your mind up - what do you want - a comunity tank + or line breed guppys devide tanks into smaller 1's? I don't have comunity tanks as I like to breed fish, so thats were i focus my hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted August 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 but I thought that with putting that many dividers into a tank (using glass would be best I am guessing) wouldn't that mean seperate filters and heaters for each section? My tank is only guppies and 1 bn (soon to be 2 and hoping to breed them). My 2ft is currently divided with the snakeskin and my golden female and the new golden ones that I have gotten and the golden fry that are about 2-3cms long. In the bigger part of the tank I have the rest of my red/orange males with my multi coloured tail females. Now that I have done this I have lost my area for breeding my 1/2 black F with my 3/4 black M. Would it be ok to put her (after she has droped fry) into the breeding net (fabric one not solid plastic) with the male over night then let them go again? Or would this cause to much stress? I would like to breed that male with the black females to try and keep the black/blue colours comming. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 just on the devided tank , yes you will need a new heater and filters but every tank does not need 1, just ever second, depends on how many subsections there are. as for filters all you need is small air driven box filters or make your own sponge filters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted August 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 so if I was to have a 3ft tank that is divided into 3 1ft sections would that mean that I would only need one heater in each end tank? And for a filter to get a powerful air pump and run 3 filters that way? The main colours that I really want to breed is my blacks and my golden with the snakeskin and when I breed the bristlenose I don't think that a 22ltr tank is really going to hold everyone lol One thing I have noticed with my fry to is that some of them seem to lose their dausal fin and anal fin and then their tail dissapears to a little skinny point and not long after that their scales puff out. I have no ammonia problems and the pH is fine. Just can't understand why this happens to some of them and not all of them. Could it be that they are the runts of the tank or they are just the weaker link? I am not to fuss as I don't end up over run with fry but out of about 20 fry I am left with about 5-10 at the most. I am not to worried about it but when I get into breeding for certian colours/looks I don't really want this big loss either. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Yes but you would not need a "powerful air pump " , just a normal 1 would handle 3 filters. As for the loss of fry I don't know what it could be but it does not sound right , lossing some fry is no big deal but that sounds excessive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted August 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 I am hoping now that I have a dedicated fry tank that more fry would be saved as before all fry were in the main tank with the adults and I guessed that they were being picked on which caused this to happen and their tails were always eaten so I hope that the loss won't be as high over the next month or two Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caserole Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 cool, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faran Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Hi PJ, do you salt your guppy tanks? "needle tail" is avoidable with salting. Otherwise, it could be good ol' tail rot, but this sounds like needle tail to me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toughchicken Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 B & K, when you refer to salting, are you referring to the use of 'tonic salt' when a water change is done? We had 'needle tail' sometime ago with our guppies but as of late have had no such problem, I’m assuming the change is because of the salting, a cheap method of fixing the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faran Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 Yup, salting water with tonic salt is pretty much essential with livebearers. One level teaspoon for every 4-5 litres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted August 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 yeah I did do that lol but I haven't lately. Both of my tanks used to be salted but when a water change is done I keep forgetting to add salt or topping up with salt and with 3 kids 5 and under its kinda easy to forget such things lol but I will get back on top of it and see how it goes Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted August 17, 2005 Report Share Posted August 17, 2005 PJ, remember that topping up NO SALT replacing water SALT Alan 104 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PENEJANE Posted August 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2005 Well I hav salted my tank and after almost a week I have just culled 20 fry their top and anal fins just end up clamped up against their body and then disapear and their tails thin out to a little point then their scales on the lower half of them then fray out and not long after that they are dead my ammonia is just reading and my ph is 7-7.5 temp is 25*C. Is there anything else that could be causing this? I have stress coat, stress zyme and melafix. Would any of these help or would it be drowned out with the salt thats in there? My directions on the salt is 1 rounded tablespoon per 20lts the tank is about 22 ltrs so I treated for 20 any help on this would be great. I don't want to have this high cull rate when I get into breeding blues and snakeskins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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