Brianemone Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43696 Thought that this was quite cool, nice to see someone go against convention just to prove someone wrong i guess NZ isnt the only place with stuburn reefers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveA Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Like the clowns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Must be a continuous battle without a skimmer. But very impressive. Either the DSB or the MM must be doing all the work and possibly the LR, still......unbelievable really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted August 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 yeah the clowns are nice, but from the colours of alot of the sps the tank (by no means the most colourfull ever but healthy) it looks fairly stable and even with what i would consider a high stocking level. not saying im going to do it (not yet anyway) but nice food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faran Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Damn, that man has Mantis Shrimp! Anyone in NZ have those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 tic toc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 tic toc... Explain.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted August 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 it was him at the store telling him that he couldnt do it one thing i didnt catch was how long its been setup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 implying a time bomb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 When you have a festering pit at the bottom of a tank with sps, and no skimmer... is just a matter of time. Heaps going in, virtually nothing coming out. That is gonna cause major problems once the sand bed fills up. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 No experance with it my self, but there are lots of people who have run tanks without skimmers for years without problem. wouldn't do it myself, but people do, and do it well. Like I said before Cliff in duniden run his tank without a skimmer, and i've only seen photos but it looks pretty good from what I have seen. Its the MIRICLE in the MIRICLEMUD that makes it work. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Its the MIRICLE in the MIRICLEMUD that makes it work. It's the MUD (mostly) in MIRICLEMUD that makes it work. Some corals fear better than others in a skimmerless tank. SPS don't fear well in phosphate fluxing systems, because of their their different structure to soft coral. There is nothing I like about any "theory" behind running tanks skimmerless. It's just illogical to me. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 I agree and disagree. I wouldn't consider doing it myself. I also think the skimmer tanks are far more likley to be successful. HOWEVER. There are just too many tanks out there without skimmers that are established and look awesome to discredited it. So its the results I am impressed with, but the thinking behind it does't compute for me. Proof is ultimatly in the pudding. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 I haven't come across any. Got any links? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 There are heaps around. Coral magizine seems to feature quite a lot. Kosh's tank on UR is, in my opnion a great tank. This guy has a great outlook on his tank, and he setup about the sametime as me. http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/inde ... =4&t=28872 Was it this months or last months RC that was skimmerless? And one of the recent TOTM on UR. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 I see signs of high nutrients in most of those pictures, which are bound to cause problems at some point. It does not look like a healthy reef at all. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Here is a MM tank. MM can work well, however you do need a large sump and have enough Algae to keep up with the nutrient load. Maybe having a small skimmer with MM should work well. Most people using skimmers with MM find that their skimmers stop skimming. http://66.218.71.231/language/translation/translatedPage.php?lp=de_en&text=http%3a%2f%2fwww.korallenriff.de%2fmark_re_ansimi.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 For the sake of guaranteeing the complete removal by using a skimmer, it seems bloody stupid not to use one. Maybe they're dicks arent big enough, so they are trying to prove something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 There is still no escaping the fact that sand beds and mud just cycle phosphorous (and other compounds). They can't get rid of them. They accumulate detritus and once full (which can take months to years, depending on particle size and physical size of the bed) they release it all back into the water. Algae only uses specific, and relatively small amounts of of the crap that accumulates. Physical removal of detritus by syphoning or skimmer is the only way to get crap out. Here is some food for though: Why connect an inherently dirty system (sand / mud bed) to a system which you are trying to keep clean (a sps display tank)? Seems counter productive. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveA Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 I’m not sure the argument about maintaining a very low nutrient environment is not a spurious one. We find coral reefs in very low nutrient environments and therefore assume that they require very low nutrients to survive. We then construct various theories as to why this should be so. What is usually ignored is that, in nature, it is only in very low nutrient environments that coral can out compete seaweed. Coral reefs don’t survive in medium to high nutrient environments because they get smothered by weed there. In our tanks we control the weed either by hand or by, again, maintaining very low nutrients. Excessive nutrients in any environment can lead to pollution but I suspect that as long as weed is kept under control, most corals will remain quite healthy in a medium nutrient environment. Perhaps they might not be as colourful in as in a low very low nutrient environment, but we only want the colour for our benefit, not for theirs. Still, I will carry on using a skimmer as I am too lazy to put in the extra effort to maintian a tank without one. I also don't have any burning desire to prove to myself that it works, or otherwise. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 There is still no escaping the fact that sand beds and mud just cycle phosphorous (and other compounds). They can't get rid of them. Sand beds/plenums, calurpa and o2 exchange can release phosphates. Sandbeds (live) also consume detritus with all the live animals etc living in them including bacterria. Why connect an inherently dirty system (sand / mud bed) to a system which you are trying to keep clean (a sps display tank)? Seems counter productive. Not sure that a sandbed is dirty (I have no love for the mud, but have respect for its results). Lots and lots of tanks out there with SPS and sandbeds that are stunners. Again results speak volumes. SteveA - The low nutrient environment more closely resembes the natural environemnt for the SPS. As for colour only being for our benifit, not sure if thats true, but it mostly is. I want my corals to resemble how they look in the wild, which is not chocolate brown. Coral survival is easy, coral thriving is my goal. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveA Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 ……The low nutrient environment more closely resembles the natural environment for the SPS. ……Pie Yes it is, but is that because they actually need it themselves, or because it is the only place that can out compete seaweed? I think dark chocolate brown with blue tips is quite nice, in fact I have one like that and would be a bit disappointed if it faded. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted August 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 my acros are slowly losing the chocolaty look thankfully, (other than the stag frag i have thats still that way) would mangroves found in newzealand do ok in a refugium setting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Yes it is, but is that because they actually need it themselves, or because it is the only place that can out compete seaweed? I think millions of years living in that environment means that is what they need/require. If you gut out an area with seaweed corals don't just pop-up. There is no doubt that algae can choke corals (florida for example) as the high nutrients (phosphates and nitrates from errosion of wet leands beacuse of beachfront property) are killing their reefs. I think dark chocolate brown with blue tips is quite nice, in fact I have one like that and would be a bit disappointed if it faded. No doubt. If a coral is supposed to be brown, then so be it. What you don't want to see is the blue acros brown because they are in poor environments. And remember, low nutrients doesn't mean low food. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 2x DSBs in this months RC TOTM. WOW. If thats not reason enough to add a DSB I don't know what is. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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