Andi Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 I have just set up a new tropical community tank, and have some serious problems with it. The tank has only been set up about 3 weeks, and everything in it is new. But I lost several fish in short order last week, apparently to fungus and whitespot, but then when my clown loach died within the space of a day, and there was nothing obviously wrong with it, I decided the water in the tank was (at least partly) at fault. So, I removed the remaining fish to a large bucket, and changed the water source from tap water to rainwater. The water went a milky-white colour, and I have no idea why. I thought the filtration might have been at fault, as I have a new system with an airstone inside the uplifter, which is quite unlike the undergravel filters which were common when I last had fish - about 5 years ago. So I consulted Tracey at Wet Pets in Palmerston North, and have added a power filter to the tank, and adjusted the pH, after I refilling the tank with a combination of Wet Pets' own tank water and the rainwater. I also added a bacterial agent, as Tracey suggested the water was low in helpful bacteria. Everything looked mostly ok until I turned on the power filter. The water went steadily milkier over the next few hours, and has stayed that way! I dare not put my remaining fish into this water, so they are still living in a covered bucket with a heater and airstone... I have no idea of the cause of this cloudiness in the water. Am seriously thinking of reverting to tapwater. But I've never had tropical fish in this area before, so am still uncertain about the tapwater and my dead fish! Has anyone had this happen before, and if so, what was the cause? I think I must have been very lucky with fish in the past, I've never had these sorts of problems before, especially over such a short space of time. And there are too many variables for me to be able to nail down the specific cause at the moment. Any advice would be gratefully received. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajbroome Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Andi said... > I lost several fish in short order last week, apparently to fungus > and whitespot, but then when my clown loach died ... In my experience, clown loaches are very sensitive to whitespot so they pick it up easily and tend to keel over > ... changed the water source from tap water to rainwater. I don't beleive it's ever a good idea to have rainwater in your community tank. It's just too prone to huge swings in pH and it's too soft for most commonly kept fish. Other people here may disagree. > The water went a milky-white colour, and I have no idea why. This is peculiar. It *may* be a bacterial or protozoan bloom... If your tank had only been set up for 3 weeks and already had several fish in it, it's not unlikely, IMHO, that the biological filter just hadn't kicked in yet. Then something died from the accumulation of waste in the water, or whatever, and seriously polluted the tank. > I thought the filtration might have been at fault, as I have > a new system with an airstone inside the uplifter... These have been around for a long time and I've found them to be useful. The wider uplift with the airstone inside seems to shift more water. This is a good thing. > So I consulted Tracey at Wet Pets in Palmerston North, and > have added a power filter to the tank... A power filter may clear up any particulate matter but I'd not expect it to quickly fix any water chemistry issues you may be having. You really need to get your biological filtration sorted out ASAP. Definitely do not buy any more fish over the next few weeks. > ... and adjusted the pH... To what? Has it changed since? > I also added a bacterial agent, as Tracey suggested the > water was low in helpful bacteria. Presumably some sort of starter culture? > Everything looked mostly ok until I turned on the power filter. > The water went steadily milkier over the next few hours, and > has stayed that way! This suggests to me that something is being stirred up by the water flow. What kind of substrate do you have? > I dare not put my remaining fish into this water, so they are > still living in a covered bucket with a heater and airstone... If it's only a few fish in a big bucket, you should be OK. I wouldn't feed them. If you need to a tank temporarily, let me know. > Any advice would be gratefully received. It's hard to be more specific without seeing your tank and set-up. There is at least one other fishkeeper in Woodville, he may be able to help you. Look for Michael Killick in the phone book, tell him I (Andrew Broome in Palmerston North) sent you. It'd be easier for him to come and have a look. Of course, being Xmas he may be away, or busy... Feel free to contact me at home, [email protected] Andrew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andi Posted December 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Hi Andrew Thanks for your post. The clown loach had no sign of whitespot, though it could have had a gill infection? The reason I totally changed the water source is that I wasn't convinced the local water was healthy either - the Woodville water has been very poor for drinking etc lately. I had consulted the Council's water guy about it before I ever put fish in the tank, and he said it would be safe. But after the problems with dead fish, I was less than convinced, and the rainwater was the only alternative to hand. I'll almost certainly switch back again. I thought the cloudiness in the water was coming out of the white gravel in the substrate of the tank, although on first setting up the tank it was slightly cloudy, then this cleared. I've only had the white water problem with the rainwater. The pH adjustment was a kit recommended by Wet Pets that 'automatically adjusts the water pH to 7.0'. And yes, the bacteria was a starter culture. Thanks for the local contact, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andi Posted December 22, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 BTW, the reason I thought the filtration may have been at fault was that, not having had this type of undergravel filter before, I wasn't sure about its setup. The instructions were not particularly helpful either. The water depth was at a point where the endcaps were only partially submerged. Turns out they should have been completely immersed (duh!). So we've now cut the uplifter down to keep it at the correct level. Not sure the whiteness is caused by a bacterial/protazoan bloom, because it worsened dramatically after adding the power filter. I'm now tending to think it is some sort of chemical reaction between the rainwater and oxygen in the tank? Definitely not adding more fish until the water is sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatman Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 I feel that rain water can change drasticley (sp) in quality and chemistry due to polution in the atmosphere and i would not personaly use it for fish, even though it can be collected and used for household supply IMO. As for loaches, i would not even think of putting a loach into a tank unless the tank is well cycled for atleast 3 months or longer as loaches have no scales and can be very sensative to any sort of water quality change. How many fish did you ave in the tank, what is the water chemistry like , nitrite/amonia/ph etc terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajbroome Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Andi said... > The water depth was at a point where the endcaps were > only partially submerged. Turns out they should have been > completely immersed (duh!). So we've now cut the uplifter > down to keep it at the correct level. As long as there was water coming out of the top then it should've been OK. Still, efficiency may be increased if there is more water being moved about by the (now) shorter uplifts. > I'm now tending to think it is some sort of chemical reaction > between the rainwater and oxygen in the tank? Water and gaseous oxygen cannot react. Andrew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajbroome Posted December 22, 2002 Report Share Posted December 22, 2002 Terry said... > I feel that rain water can change drasticley (sp) in quality and > chemistry due to polution in the atmosphere ... Woodville is a fairly rural area and so if the water was collected off an established roof, after it'd been raining for an hour or so, I'd expect it to be pretty clean. I'd still not use it for a community tank though. Potable (ie tap) water is generally good enough for fish to live in. I use it almost exclusively. Rain water is too precious and my carnivorous plants use it too fast Andrew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andi Posted December 23, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2002 Well, I've just come home and discovered my SO has cleared out the tank in my absence. Will try again with the ordinary tapwater, and see what happens. The whiteness problem was non-existent with that, whatever else may have been going on... Thanks for your input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted December 23, 2002 Report Share Posted December 23, 2002 Hi Andi. But I lost several fish in short order last week, apparently to fungus and whitespot, how did u come to this conclusion? i presume they showed some form of physical signs... how big is the tank? how many fish did u start off with? how big were they approximately.....how much were u feeding? did u try seeding the tank with good bugs to start with? anyway, from your history....recent tank setup.....sudden epidemic.....n it sounds like u had quite a bit of fish in a xxxsized tank, it all points to water quality problems...esp ammonia/ nitrite. classical new tank syndrome.....might have been complicated by an infectious skin organism... another possible explaination for the clown loaches death----some diseases produce no clinical signs at all...e.g icthyobodo / costia. have u added any medication etc since then?? it might have buggered the filter n account partly for the cloudiness.... clown loaches r extra sensitive to certain drugs too........could u have poisoned it? also, how much did the pH change?? sudden large changes can cause an acute stress syndrome n lead to sudden death. cloudy water or not, it's of secondary importance to ammonia n nitrites. u should focus on 1) testing for these parameters 2) supporting your filter( keep up with the bacterial agent n perhaps some zeolite) 3) doing water changes + salt( up to 50% water changes, once every day or 2....a tablespoon full of salt per 10 L is safe for most fish) 4) reducing feed for the next week will reduce ammonia production. avoid overfeeding.... If your tapwater is from the local council....there shouldn't b any problems.......just ensure u remove the chlorine with chemicals, and keep the temp. constant during water changes.... hope things start to clear up....n survive through the new yr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andi Posted December 23, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2002 Wayne - yes, physical symptoms - small fungus patches, little white spots... The tank is 100L, and had a total of 10 small fish in it, the loach was one of the bigger ones. No sign of overfeeding problems, but no, I did not 'seed' the tank to begin with, as I did not know the importance. I do now... I've never had a tank from scratch before, and did not know about the problems they can have. Please let me clarify also, the fish have not been exposed to the cloudy water, I am just extremely puzzled by its appearance. Yes, treated the tank for disease, used nothing harmful to the loach, as I am aware they are sensitive. I am certain it was not poisoned. But an infection which produced no visible symptoms seems likely. Will take the advice offered by Fatman, and not replace my loach until I am sure the tank has had a chance to cycle for a while. Will try again with the tapwater, as the consensus seems to be that it will be fine as long as the pH etc is monitored closely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted December 23, 2002 Report Share Posted December 23, 2002 Hi Andi, A couple of scoops of gravel from an established tank, plus a well used box or sponge filter and some activated carbon will clear your tank cloudiness in a very short time. As regards the rainwater.... IMO, this is not the cause of your cloudy water. Many of us on the forum use it extensivly.... myself being one of them, and personally I find it more trustworthy than town supply, which I refuse to drink. Regards, Bill (Pegasus) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatman Posted December 23, 2002 Report Share Posted December 23, 2002 You wouldn't want to use the rain water in christchurch in the winter,, we have the highest polution rate from open fires in NZ :-? But the tap water is absolutly pure, no chemicals or artificial additives of any kind terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted December 23, 2002 Report Share Posted December 23, 2002 One of the many benefits of living north of the smoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted December 24, 2002 Report Share Posted December 24, 2002 I found that when I first began my tank, the water turned cloudy whiteish, and was told by my mentor that was normal and would clear. It did. He also said DON'T put any fish in until three weeks after it had cleared. This apparently gave the good bacteria to build up and colonise the tank. Then he suggested two guppies to begin with. I take it that the stones/gravel etc has been well rinsed. Probably by now you have solved the problem and are well on the way to putting the fish back. Oh I have found that Stress Coat or Aqua plus are good starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted December 24, 2002 Report Share Posted December 24, 2002 You won't get any good bacteria in the tank if you don't have any fish in it or aren't dosing it with ammonia. No fish=no ammonia=no cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted December 24, 2002 Report Share Posted December 24, 2002 The idea was to get the tank running. Check out the heaters etc Allow the gravel to clear to put in the bacteria culture starter :-? and then put a couple of fish in. Thus beginning the cycle. worked for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted December 24, 2002 Report Share Posted December 24, 2002 In that case, waiting 3 weeks is a ridiculous amount of time to wait before adding fish. I'd suggest putting the fish any time after the water clears up. Though, I doubt cloudy water just from poorly rinsed substrate would hurt the fish anyway. I don't know about the bacteria starter culture...If it's like a bottled culture I think they're basically a scam since any bacteria would die in a sealed bottle. I was baffled when a guy at Animates I'd thought was pretty knowledgable was surprised when I said I never have to dose my tank with extra bacteria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted December 25, 2002 Report Share Posted December 25, 2002 It is called a 'learning curve' Ira. I have always added culture with every water change. Always changed the carbon. I was sooooooooooo good. Then when Caryl introduced me to the forum I began to learn from everyones postings and dared to try different. Now I am a fish in midst of change - still being careful not to throw the fish out with the changes LOL. So folks plse keep posting and teaching :roll: Much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadie Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 Hi, Just wondering, do you have any test kits? Through reading many forums, I've found that it's the water quality that helps your fish survive.. One tip I found was to test your water quality first as well, coz that helps you better understand where the problem could possibly stem from.. I got myself the nitrite/nitrate/ammonia and PH test kits - I find them pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 There are plenty of others for those who want to test all sorts of stuff but those 4 are the biggies. Without knowing them, if a fish gets sick how are you supposed to figure out why without knowing the water quality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 YEPPERS I use the PH all the time and the nitrate&nitrite occassionally. Invaluable even with regular water changes. Here the tap water can go from 7.0 to 7.2 What I have to watch here is the chlorine levels and so I have a test kit for that too. However if I remember to draw off the water far enuff in advance it is no problem. Sometimes there is none and other times the council has gone mad and dumped a bag in the water supply it seems. Long live green clean NZ> joke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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