lduncan Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 I don't know whether I should post this, but here it is. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... enumber=11 It's a RC zeovit thread which has been going on for 3 or 4 days, it's up to about 58 pages long!!! The first 50 pages were the usual back and forward argument. The link above goes to page 51, this is where it starts getting interesting. (It had to be split into two separate threads after the first 40 pages, so the link actually takes you to the page numbered 11.) Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 thats a great thread....... I love the iron-phosphate binding making it easier to skim out, I have been convinced that this type of thing has been at work, no idea about metal eating bacs tho..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 In fact, I wouldn't recommend the zeovit method to aquarists who want to keep corals that love nutrient rich water, like many softies, LPS and some SPS too. Previously, I always had "no nitrates no phosphate" using common test kits, but that was probably only a limit of the kits and the total N and P concentration was well over NSW values. You can see the difference (huge, I'd say) only when you reach stable conditions of ammonium, nitrates and phosphate at TRUE extremely low values. which is why zeo users go to such great lengths to add no phos/organics to there tanks...... RO/DI all the way..... gotta be carefull got warned once about stressing how important good testing is and how most test kits are NOT UP to the resolution you would need to have if you where dosing zeo based on the results... Hey Zeo? u around?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 I think the point is, is that there is no test kit for the processes going on in the system, which makes it a very risky method. The problems have nothing to do with nitrate or phosphate. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 You think. How is that evidence? I think most people don't add that stuff [discounting newbies and those that only get their info from the LFS]. We can `think' all we want ... but without some relevant data to back it up, what's the point? Almost all the DVD's i have with people keeping tanks 20years plus...... few if any use the "Suppliments" Layton thanks for this link, so far its been very interesting/educational reading... but should not the dosing of some Zeo prioducts be adjusted according to the results of your tests? thus the accuracy and repeatability of the test kit is the determining factor in the succesful dosing... on the other hand, think of all the people out there who wash there hair with product based on the "science bit" ..... mind u i would probably take any personal advice from miss aniston i could get, now that brad has moved on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Layton thanks for this link, so far its been very interesting/educational reading... but should not the dosing of some Zeo prioducts be adjusted according to the results of your tests? thus the accuracy and repeatability of the test kit is the determinuing factor in the succesful dosing... Well that appears to be part of the problem. You can't test for the things which you need too, in order to control the by-products of the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 lps, your history is very common between users who don't test for nutrients with very accurate instruments (i.e: photometer). If you drive the tank to the very low nutrient side in too fast a way then you'll see tissue recession. The method needs fine tuning. now i can see why, the process of quickly removing the nutrients might actually suck the required trace elements right out of the exposed coral tissue........ as bomber says.... So every time there's a tide change - low to high, or high to low nutrients - these corals experience tissue recession? Nope When you add too much iron too fast, you can see bleaching and tissue recession. When you add a liquid something designed to strip something out of the water, you can strip it out of living tissue and see tissue recession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 now i can see why, the process of quickly removing the nutrients might actually suck the required trace elements right out of the exposed coral tissue........ as bomber says.... There is a subtle difference there. Reducing nutrients in the water column is fine. You can do it as quickly as you like, without having problems with tissue loss, etc. What Bomber is referring to is ADDING a chemical into the water column, such as a chelator, which actually diffuses into the coral tissue and binds required elements, that's what will cause problems. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted June 15, 2005 Report Share Posted June 15, 2005 Understand that..... that is a great thread, I suggest everyone on here reads it from page 11 on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 A couple of interesting posts this morning: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... ost5171311 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 It is getting interesting, I think the iron does have a big part to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 nice to see how civil scientific investigation can be.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveA Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Mmmmm... I think my enjoyment of the hobby will take a serious downturn if I ever get the notion that I need to treat my tank like a chemical experiment just to get the last increment of colour out of my corals. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 its an interesting moral/ethical developement.. will possibly only split the hobby into two camps..... I am more of the bigger skimmer and phosphate remover then chemical manipulation school...... would love to just live close to nice clean sea water source and do 10-15% change per day and no skimmer...... i think bomber on RC does this as he lives florida queys sp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Actually Bomber doesn't do regular water changes at all. Apparently he hasn't changed water for months. He only does it when he sees the corals need it. What he DOES do is keep is tank clean hence the BB. He uses a beckett skimmer, and uses UV to kill all that nasty bacteria and algae. He doesn't use phosphate removers (that's what a skimmer is for after all) He uses snails to keep things clean. As well as "Doug" the long spine urchin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 My urchin lives on the bommie. He keeps the bommie really cleen compared to the other part of the tank. $25 for a tang sounds like me, Anyone comming to Welly soon? Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZEOvitANZ Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 For everyone who believes this "iron" theory about zeovit. I will supply free of charge (Except postage) a bottle of iron concentrate from the zeovit company. The person will have to agree to use this bottle to prove their theory by taking photo's before and after using the iron supplyment. Please don't PM me but contact me direct via this thread. RNB could be a good candidate but I am sure there are a few others that will do it. Nows your chance to put your money were your mouths are and show me that iron will reduce zoox numbers and bring out the original bright colours. Brendan Zeovit NZ/Aussie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 No need. It has been established already that increased iron can cause zooxanthellae to be expelled: - Metal tolerance in the scleractinian coral Porites lutea. Harland, A. D.; Brown, B. E. Cent. Trop. Coastal Manage., Univ. Newcastle upon Tyne, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK. Mar. Pollut. Bull. (1989), 20(7), 353-7. Which states “Exposure of the scleractinian coral P. lutea to elevated iron concns. leads to a loss of zooxanthellae (symbiotic algae) from the coral tissuesâ€. Are you suggesting that sending a hobbyist a solution of unkown substance, having them dose a certain amount with no ability to test whatever they may be adding, and by looking at the corals, dispute the findings above? The speculation in the reefcentral thread explains a lot of the effects that are seen when using zeovit. I'll volunteer to try if and only if you also agree to cover all coral losses that occur. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianemone Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 personally id give it a go but im more interested in using zeovit as intended by mr zeo. what exactly do you need for the system to work, i've only ever heard people arguing about it. and if you dont mind how much does it cost?? (via pm) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 ok Brendan, I'm willing to give it a shot. I am neutral on this subject, purely because I dont know enough about it to comment. As they say, "the proof is in the pudding". I dont mind being a test case SO LONG AS you can provide some reading material prior to giving it a go. I dont particularly like adding things if I dont know how they work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZEOvitANZ Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Layton, we couldn't use your tank as a test as your corals are too brown to start with. We need a tank with some colour in it. http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/la...rch-vt4928.html Brendan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Offer still stands. My brown corals would be perfect subjects for this. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Brendan while I understand what you are doing, it is a waste of time. If this iron theory was correct we might as well all stop whatever else we are doing, chuck a bit of iron in the tank, and hey presto - awesome coloured corals! The study Layton has pointed out is likely technically correct, but in the real world of our aquaria would be unlikely to achieve the results that others, not the study author, are claiming. As I read the RC thread, the theory proposed, and already accepted as fact by some, is that iron would need to be dosed in quantities that are near lethal to certain zooxanthellae, but in fact stimulating to "other" weird coloured zooxanthellae. ( So called ). If it was that easy, somebody would have figured that out years ago, there are many people dosing iron. In fact, the study author simply showed that iron in big enough concentration to be lethal can kill or inhibit zooxanthellae, and Habib, the chemist, has proposed a theory that this may be how zeovit works. Habib in no way says this is a fact, he states it as a theory. Other, less scientific people have seized on it as a fact, much like a while back the same people seized on the "fact" that zeobac did not contain bacteria Brendan my personal opinion is you should not give anybody free iron, people who are interested should just go ahead and try the zeovit system proper. To anybody interested, it cost me less than 200 bucks to get everything I needed to start zeovit, although I did make the reactor myself. I can also say I am extremely satisfied, it is the best thing I did for the tank. Just a word of advice to new zeovit users, don't overdo it and reduce nutrients too fast. It is people who overdose or continue to use other products as well who have problems as that can reduce phosphate and other nutrients to levels that are too low for coral health, and result in tissue necrosis. From what I have heard, this can happen to leathers as well as sps. And just as an afterthought, a claim I keep hearing is that zeovit is quote "poisoning" the corals. if this is the case, how come new zeovit users notice not only better colour, but increased growth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 I agree. The entire thread is pure speculation. Although it is based on facts, there is no hard evidence, or proof that zeovit works in this way. But is sure is interesting reading. I don't think the iron is particularly toxic to zooxanthellae. What i think happens is the algae is provided with excess food. Some corals are less effective at regulating their zooxanthellae (corals can regulate food the the zooxanthellae to a certain extent), so in response the the oversupply of food from them, they expellel them. Maybe it can appear "toxic" to come corals. But not to the zooxanthellae. It's food for them. The study Layton has pointed out is likely technically correct, but in the real world of our aquaria would be unlikely to achieve the results that others, not the study author, are claiming. Not having read the study. I would not know whether what you're suggesting is correct or not, it depends on how it was carried out. I don't know how you can claim this yourself? If this iron theory was correct we might as well all stop whatever else we are doing, chuck a bit of iron in the tank, and hey presto - awesome coloured corals! Maybe not quite that easy. What speciation whould you add? Fe(II), Fe(III), an organic complex...? But people chuck iron in their tank all the time. And if I remember correctly some fairly similar things happen. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted June 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 And just as an afterthought, a claim I keep hearing is that zeovit is quote "poisoning" the corals. if this is the case, how come new zeovit users notice not only better colour, but increased growth? How come? Coral growth is not well correlated to coral health. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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