Help! Cichlids are dying fast - googly eyes, no appetite, &a

[TankMate]

we don't know what to do anymore. Deaths one after another in span of 1 1/2 weeks. Been feeding them highgrade frozen bloodworms no probs.

Two weeks ago they were fine, until four of the five clown loaches died. No obvious reason why, and we just attributed it to the strong current (current increased as the cichlids liked it). Then, we fed them live bloodworms. They loved it. Three days later:

1.A cichlid died (forgot what it was - blue with orange-tippped fins). We've had him for 5 days.It was upside down and struggling to right itself. We noticed it wasn't excreting much a day or two before it died, wasn't eating much either.

2.Then Ozzie, Australian grunter died. We've had him for over a week.

3.Then a kuhli loach went to loach heaven.

4.Then Jaws (Ornatus) went.

5.Then Bifrinatus went - he squeezed between the filter and glass.

6.Then Moby (Malawi Blue dolphin?Looks like a mini whale). Found him upside down like #1.

7.Then Braveheart, the Electric blue, kicked the bucket.

Struggled upside down until the end =(

8.Then Slick, a Daffodil, pushed up daisies.

Ammonia was so high, so worked on clearing it.

Increased aeration too.

So broken hearted we were, we watched them all night.

Noticed that Prince's (a zebra cichlid) eyes were nearly gonna pop out of their sockets! Then noticed the rest had some sort of googly look to their eyes - the worst was Prince and Liberace, both zebra cichlids.

9.Then Sgt Vivian, (don't know what she is but is a green and black camouflage cichlid) bit the bullet yesterday, Sat.

All these did not show any obvious signs of death or disease. Only that they looked great day before they died.

Ammonia = 0

Nitrates = 0

pH = ok

Went to the fish shop for advise and they said to put crushed coral, so we got a bag (what else can you do?)

Been cleaning excreta all the time to keep it clean.

Now, another mottled-coloured fish looks worse for wear. It's a cichlid with black and grey camouflage spots (Desert Storm). Reddish sports on belly and on the tips of the fins. Face has gone really, really dark.

The zebra cichs are still there, one is active, one is not. Eyes do not look as bulgy as before but it is still there. No white spots that I can see, however it could be internal parasites.

Lowered aeration in case the bubbles/oxygen was causing gas-bubble disease.

Remaining fish are:

2 Oscars

2 Kompressiceps, male & female

1 clown loach

2 Zebra cichs

2 SoAmerican cichs - one has reddish gills

1 Frontosa

2 Convict cichs - the most active of the lot

2 black sharks with red fins

1 Daffodil

2 Electric yellows - eyes are a bit googly

2 lionheads - eyes are a bit googly

1 Sleepy cod

1 Armoured catfish

1 cichlid, white with blue splotches (called him Levis)

I read in the posts about Ich - can't see anything - no white spots, no cysts (not that I can see them anyway). Maybe Ichophonus? Wanted to open up Sgt Vivian to see if there were worms, but I couldnt do it. Hope someone can help out there. We're in Sydney, Australia, so if you know of any local meds, or a fish helpline number, we would gladly appreciate it.

TankMate

[Pegasus]

WOW TankMate,... Welcome to the forum.

First question is what part of the Pacific do you own.

With all those fish you surely need it.

I think we need to know a bit more about your water conditions, tank size, pH, temp and such.

Just reading the above it seems loke you have high levels of something in your water.

What other foods do you feed ?

What medications or additives have you used to date ?

What Water changes do you do, and how often ?

How long have you had the tank setup ?

When did the probs start... and what was the last thing you added before they did ?

Have you checked for dead fish under rocks etc, ?

What substrate and filtration are you using ?

Is the water cloudy at all ?

How often do you feed ?

What are your present readings of the water ?

Can you post a bit more info ?

Regards,

Bill (Pegasus)

[TankMate]

I'm glad you replied! Hang on - will find out.

[TankMate]

Hi! I know what you mean about the # of fish. The family went MAD about fish and couldn't stop buying 'em.

Had a tank before (no deaths), then upgraded to a bigger one three weeks ago. So far, 25% water change only in new tank.

What other foods do you feed ?

-Cichlid sticks

-Sera granules

-Tetra Tropical fish food

-Cichlid pellets

-Goldfish food (to enhance growth of lumps, eg lionheads, etc.)

These are all mixed in a container (approx 20% of each is fed), and scooped into tank.

What medications or additives have you used to date ?

-Water conditioner

-Prime Ammonia remover

-Cycle

-Protozin

-Sera biostart

What Water changes do you do, and how often ?

-New tank - so far, 25%

How long have you had the tank setup ?

-3 weeks

When did the probs start... and what was the last thing you added before they did ?

-Fed em live bloodworms two weeks ago - they loved it and they were fine.

-Got new fish - Sleepy Cod. Two days later, fish started dying.

Have you checked for dead fish under rocks etc, ?

-All removed

What substrate and filtration are you using ?

-2 Bio via Aqua 250 & 850

-1 Powerhead 2000L/hr

Is the water cloudy at all ?

-Yes

How often do you feed ?

-2 to 4 times a day

What are your present readings of the water ?

kdh = 6 to 8

pH = 8

Ammonia & Nitrates = 0

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Does the strength of current matter much?

Also, noticed parts of the eyes (outer ring) losing colour.

I've been reading posts for a few hours now - could this be Malawi bloat?

[Caryl]

How big is the tank? That is an awful lot of fish. Was it newly set up 3 weeks ago? You cannot add that number of fish so fast. The tank has to 'cycle'.

You say your ammonia is 0 but elsewhere in your post you said it was so high you were working on it.

[Goldie]

When u set up tank did you put new filters etc in or ones you had been using in old tank. Have you renewed the sponges in filter recently (a friend got caught by putting in new sponge and later found it had been treated with anti bacterial stuff - was a kitchen sponge - he lost most of his discus). Please keep us posted. It is tragic watching your fish die and feeling so helpless. Fins crossed for you.

[Ira]

Hmmm, if it's a new tank, am I right in assuming most of the fish are very small? Even with small ones I'd say a 400 liter would be a minimum and would quickly become too small.

[Pegasus]

Hi TankMate,

Geez.... Where do we start

The most important thing we needed to know was your tank size.

CLOUDY WATER:

Definite signs of OVERFEEDING, Something dead in the tank, or high bacteria, plus,... unless you are running a huge tank you are way overstocked. ALL these lead to unstable conditions.

You say about you feeding,

Goldfish food (to enhance growth of lumps, eg lionheads, etc.)

These are all mixed in a container (approx 20% of each is fed), and scooped into tank

This "Scooping" thing you do... How much do you "Scoop" ?

Four times a day is a lot to be feeding most fish in "Scoops"

A three week old setup is far from established, and should have very low numbers of fish untill it becomes established, even with all the stuff you seemed to have added.

Three weeks with the amount of fish you have is suicide, for your bank balance and your fish, and to say you have only done a single water change of 25%..... Your ammonia levels must have been through the roof, which is more than likely the cause of all your fish losses.

The thing is how do we stop you losing anymore fish.

The cloudy water means trouble, so lots of water changes are going to be needed. Do a 50% ASAP, then 30 to 40 percent daily till the water clears.

Run a filter of some sort with Activated Carbon (continuously). This might help remove some of the toxins in the water.

FEEDING:

Reduce to one feed a day, and only feed what they can clean up completely in five or so minutes. They won't starve.

Personally I would definitely STOP feeding the

Goldfish food (to enhance growth of lumps, eg lionheads, etc.)

Still trying to absorb it all, so I'll let a few others comment.

Regards,

Bill (Pegasus)

[TankMate]

Hi all! Thanks for the replies.

Sorry - writing in despair and forgot the most important bits:

Tank is 550L (4 x 2.5 x 2)

Do I still have too much fish?

Most of them are small.

Mech filter on old tank was put on new tank.

Got a new bio filter for new tank. Set up tank for 3-4 days before putting fish in. Put some old water, maybe 20%, in new tank.

Aaaargh! Should we have waited 2-3 weeks?!

Ammonia levels were high in past week (2nd highest on chart), BUT is back to 0 now, for 2 days now. And yes - added fish all together =(

Now, they seem to be moving about, including the zebras which were v-e-r-y sluggish yesterday morning. One, however, does not look very good. End of gills are feathery, face is very dark (not normal for this fish at all), colour is all splotched together, and stays in one spot. Got stuck upside down for a little while & we thought that was the end for poor Desert Storm.

Ammonia = 0 for the past 2 days to date.

Nitrate = 0 for the past 2 days to date.

Last death was yesterday afternoon.

QUESTION: Do I still need to do a water change, even if all levels are OK?

Do you think we are in the clear?

The things we are worried about:

gill redness - SA cich

no appetite, no poo - 1 male Compressiceps

pop eye - zebras and some of the other fish but not as bad as yesterday

one fish which seems to be very ill (see above)

[Ira]

And turn up your aeration! I don't know much about gas bubble disease, but within reason, you can't have too much aeration unless the bubbles and splashing are upsetting your fish, especially when they're sick.

It definitely sounds like the problem was started by throwing heaps of fish into an un cycled tank. The levels might be ok now, but the damage has been done.

[TankMate]

Thanks. Will keep you all posted.

In the meantime, will monitor all levels, reduce feeding, (I suspect other people in house feed fish when we're not looking), add prime.

Fins crossed.

TankMate

[Pegasus]

Hi TankMate,

According to your other post on "another board" he he... your fish are

More info:

Dead fish ranged from 5cm to 8cm.

Tank is 550L, 4 x 2.5 x 2 feet

90% of the fishes used to live in our 120L tank.

Average size of fish in the tank = 8cm.

8cm is not really a small fish.

Haven't really worked out how many you have/had, but this is irrelevant, as the danger was "Putting all the fish in over such a short period"

QUESTION: Do I still need to do a water change, even if all levels are OK?

Do you think we are in the clear?

You are FAR from in the clear.... Do the water changes

The things we are worried about:

gill redness - SA cich

no appetite, no poo - 1 male Compressiceps

pop eye - zebras and some of the other fish but not as bad as yesterday

one fish which seems to be very ill (see above)

Gill Redness... Possible damage due to high ammonia levels, eg, the membranes of the gills are burned.

Water Changes, salt treatment 1tblspn to 5 gall if possible... depends on fish type) NOT applicable to loaches and most catfish.

No Excrement... Possible constipation or bloat due to the foods you are feeding. (Need to change the food to something more palatable... try offering some live food... segregate if you have a hospital tank and add one table spoon of Epsom Salts per five gallon of water.)

Pop Eye... (Exophthalmus) Gas Buildup behind the eyes... Mainly caused by high bacteria levels. (Could also be an internal bacteria infection)

It is also possible that the fish was stressed or harrased and has bumped the eye against something, and IF this is the case, the swelling could go down over the coming days.

The salt treatment sometimes works, or you could try some type of available medication.

Just to make sure you have your readings correct, get your water tested by the shop, or a friend if they have a decent test kit.

Regards,

Bill (Pegasus)

[TankMate]

An update on the ongoing saga:

Red jewel cichlid - RIP (last night, Sun)

Female Compressiceps - RIP (today, Mon)

The rest look better since last night (apart from Female Compressiceps

aka Chong; guess other half Cheech is destined to be single)

Good appetite, good feces, actively swimming, better coloration.

Filtration increased to 4500/hr, with 2 bio & 3 mech (no carbon), current reduced to 50% so sick fish can recover.

Prime used - 90% show massive improvement on using Protozin.

Zebras now showing normal territorial aggression (whoo-hoo!) & Frontosa is looking soo much better.

Monitoring the readings TWICE a day.

Ammonia = 0, Nitrate = 0, PH = 7 to 7.5

Am controlling the ph as the LFS did not say to add this slowly

(Thanks, Rusty!).

Well, we learned the hard way, didn't we?

Patience IS a virtue.

Will keep you posted, and will try to insert a photo of the survivors when I manage to get hold of a digicam.

Thanks so much for your help.

[TankMate]

Pegasus - Guilty of multiple posting but I was frantic! Thanks for your help. Pop eye was both eyes, and affected lots of fish, so definitely not an accident.

[Pegasus]

Hi Rusty,

No prob with the multiple postings He He. :)

It's sometimes the only way to try to find the answers, as I have had to do on many occasions.

Reducing the feedings and quantity of feeds plus regular water changes should eventually get you back on track, and hopefully in the meantime you won't lose any more fish.

Keep us posted on the progress.

Regards,

Bill (Pegasus)

[Caryl]

A hard lesson learned TankMate but glad to hear fish are now recovering. Keep us informed with progress. You aren't the first to panic as fish start to die and you won't be the last!

[Fatman]

And definatly dont add any clown loaches untill the tank is well cycled, at least 3 months or more as they are very sensitive to conditions and need good quality water, and expect Whitespot to develop for a while as these fish don't take traveling well, I have 7 clowns (3 to 5 inch )and all but 2 developed whitespot which was treated.

Terry

[Pegasus]

Good advice Terry, but your

And definatly dont add any clown loaches untill the tank is well cycled

should read... Don't add ANY fish till you get your probs sorted out

What's the latest Rusty, how are they doing ??

[TankMate]

Wednesday 13 Nov

Hi y'all!

Update - lost one more Zebra Monday night

BUT...no more since then.

All fish look great now. One looks really scabby and flaky

(Desert Storm - he was the one we thought we were going to lose

3 days ago), but he's up and about.

Mild case of fin rot on armoured catfish and 2 cichs.

Looks like pop-eye getting worse on one cich, affecting both eyes.

Has fin rot too, the poor thing.

And yes, NO MORE FISH to be added (for a while, anyway). We've gone through too much pain in the last two weeks.

Got new meds today - Myxazin.

The box says :

"Lowers count of harmful bacteria, treats fin rot, body rot, ulcers, etc,

controls Pop Eye, cloudy eyes, mouth fungus, whitespot."

Comments on this meds, anyone?

TankMate

(not Rusty, Pegasus!)

PS. Should stop naming my fish - I get too attached.

Am I the only one who names their fish? Was viewing my previous posts

and laughed at my crazy ramblings, reference to fish by proper names

:lol:

[Pegasus]

TankMate

(not Rusty, Pegasus!)

My apologies errr.... TankMate.

You did after all sign some of your posts by the other name

[Goldie]

There are some posts in the forum re salt in the tank. This is a natural anti-biotic. I have only recently been adding it to my tank and the fish have given it the fins up. I definitely think it was a positive change - adding the salt to the tanks.

Name the fish, heaven forbid. LOL Jack n Jill, blueberry and blossom, stroppy n sneaky would roll around the bottom of the tank laughing if they thought I had named them Mind you when it comes to naming the 20 neon tetra I think I would need a school roll.

[Ira]

You just need to learn the right way to name the neons. Like one of my wife's coworkers uses to name his cockatiels. Name the neons AJ, BJ, CJ, DJ, up to TJ.

[Goldie]

LOL ROFL I really needed that laugh today Ira. Thanks.

[TankMate]

There are some posts in the forum re salt in the tank. This is a natural anti-biotic. I have only recently been adding it to my tank and the fish have given it the fins up.

What salts? How much? I've got a 550L tank.

[TankMate]

RE Names

LOL!

I named my 2 Electric yellows B1 & B2...ergo, other naming conventions could be

T1, T2, T3...

Or the 7 dwarves - Happy, Doc, Grumpy...(hey, that's a good idea for the fish i just bought - ONLY JOKING! Pegasus & co would kill me if I got new fish considering what they're going through right now).

My lionfish are Simba and Mufasa ,Clownfish is Krusty,Catfish is Quasimodo.

======

OH NO! I just looked at the pop-eye fish and it's spinning round and round, and everyone is picking on him! I don't think he's going to make it through.