Ammonia Issues

[zombieworm]

I have been a lot of trouble with my discus (I think they are going to be one of those fish I just can't keep). I did a 40% water change, then started doing the testing for all my tanks, as I do periodically. 

All my tanks seem to sit at an annoying level for ammonia, even the one that is heavily planted and minimally stocked. I decided to test the discus tank, even though I had just done a water change, and was shocked at what the ammonia levels were, given that I had just done a 40% water change, and the previous water change had only been a week before. 

Being the suspicious type, and knowing that there is no way the discus tank had been at almost twice that level before the water change, I decided to test the water straight out of the tap. Our local tap water sits at 0.5 ppm ammonia! I don't have access to any other water source. Any suggestions?

[gligor]

I've heard people buy a barrel and leave it outside to collect rain water then use that. But I haven't done this myself and not sure if rain water has any materials we don't want in the aquarium.

[Ira]

decided to test the water straight out of the tap. Our local tap water sits at 0.5 ppm ammonia! I don't have access to any other water source. Any suggestions?

Do more frequent smaller water changes,  the bacteria in your tank should build up to a level to manage the ammonia and the water change won't bring the concentration up much?

Otherwise, collect rainwater.

[BigBadBadger]

Its not clear from above whether you using any tap water de-chlorination treatments when doing the water changes?

My suggestion would be to dose the tap water with Seachem Prime (or it's powdered form, Safe) went doing your water changes from the tap.  As well as dealing with Chlorine and Chloramines it also detoxifies ammonia.  Whilst Prime is expensive I've found this works well for me, I keep 4 discus tanks pretty heavily stocked and do 90% water changes on all of them at least twice a week straight from the tap, using Prime.  I understand that if there are Chloramines added by your regional council to it's water then in neutralising the Chlorine component, ammonia is actually produced noting Prime detoxifies this BUT I suspect it may well still show up on standard test kits albeit it should be 'safe'.

[zombieworm]

I should have included that I use Prime at every water change. It is something I have always done, and I just assume that others will expect that I have declorinated. I forget that some people don't dechlorinate their water.

[BigBadBadger]

Not a problem, I had assumed that you were using de-chlorinator but it does pay to check.....
I would suggest that the Prime 'should' be detoxifying the ammonia (at least for a period of time) and accordingly not surprising that you are getting ammonia readings on the test kit as the ammonia is still there but should not harm the fish (again if the Prime is doing what it says it should).  Possibly just need some more time to build up your beneficial bacteria to combat this in the medium term but in the shorter term stick with the Prime (you can up the dose in really base cases of ammonia or nitrite spikes etc).  How old is the tank and has it been fully cycled?
Stick with the discus they are a great fish!  IMO - they are much easier to keep than the myths might say (they are so domesticated now they are pretty well adapted to a range of water conditions, within reason => obviously your ammonia issue will be a problem long term).  In fact of the 2 species I keep discus and guppies I find I lose more guppies, interestingly I surmise this might because they are so inbred now the hardiness from the wild strains is long gone.....

Edited July 14, 2016 by BigBadBadger

[zombieworm]

The tank has been up and running for quite a while - well established, with rampant plant growth.

The biggest issue for me at this point is that the ammonia levels were higher AFTER the water change than they were before the water change, and when I tested the water straight out of the tap it tested at 0.5. Someone from my LFS has also recommended double-dosing with Prime as an emergency measure, which is what I have done at the moment. Someone else has recommended a deionizer (a DI unit), especially since I am in the process of setting up a marine tank for corals, and they are even more sensitive than freshwater fish.

The next - and ongoing issue - is the discus. I would really appreciate your expertise in this area 

I lost one that went totally psycho, smashing itself all around the tank until it knocked itself out... then died. Then another one died for no apparent reason. It looked healthy - no spots, no fuzz, good colour. It just languished and died within a 6 hr period. I waited a couple of weeks until I was sure no others were going to to mysteriously drop dead on me, then replaced the two I lost. Three hours later, one of the originals dropped dead. A few days later the remaining 5 all went black, listless, fins folded, and became covered in slime. That was about a week ago. It is heartbreaking watching them die, and even more heartbreaking watching them suffer like this. I had the original discus for about 4 months before all this started. All the rest of the fish in the tank are fine. I have no idea what is causing any of these problems with the discus, or how to fix them. Apart from the amonnia issue (I now have an ammonia scrubber in the filter and did the emergency dosing with Prime to bring that under control), all the other tank parameters are excellent, and have been the whole time.

I even moved the yoyo loaches out into another tank (which is really too small for them and I am trying to rehome them), as they were running riot - as yoyos do, stressing a number of the fish including the catfish they kept ploughing into and over in their high speed chases.

If I lose the discus this time, I won't try again. Apart from the heartbreak, it is hurringly expensive! 

[Adrienne]

How big and old are the discus you are purchasing?  Small, young discus are notoriously difficult to raise in a planted tank as they require frequent, often daily water changes.  Once they reach 6cm you would be able to get by with 20 x 50% water changes per week until they are fully grown (12cm at around 12 months).  If you are buying they should be showing 1cm growth per month of their age ie 2 months 2cm, 3 months 3cm.  Discus are prone to flukes and internal worms.  Going dark suggests that they have died from this problem.  Flukes which is a parasite will make them flick around, rub and often one gill fin is clamped.

As suggested above you will be getting ammonia readings, even with prime as it locks the ammonia in a non-toxic form however the readings will still show.  I would ask the council about ammonia in the water and see what they come back with.  With regards to using rainwater be careful how you collect it as sometimes run off can have contaminants in it.

[zombieworm]

Yeah, I wouldn't use the rainwater around here as I would be too concerned about contamination, but I have no way to collect it anyway, and am not in a position to set that kind of thing up. I did try to talk to the council about the tap water, but they didn't want to know. Just kept saying the water was fine, must be my pipes - but wouldn't say when they last tested. I tested the neighbours' water as well, and theirs tested the same as mine, so it isn't my pipes. I did find one interesting thing from them though - apparently Hastings water ISN'T chlorinated, only flouridated. 

I have gone ahead and bought a DI unit, since I am in the process of setting up my first marine tank, for corals. Most of the tanks will be fine on the town water, with the extra Prime, but I will use the DI unit for the marine tank and the big tropical which has all the most sensitive fish, and is the only one I have trouble with.

Sapphire, who died last night, was only 5 cm. She was the smallest. The others have all been around 8 to 10 cm. Yup, they flick around, rub a lot - they have quite bare patches, and yup, one gill fin is clamped. I thought that was kind of weird when I first noticed it. So nice to finally put a name this - thank you! How do I deal with fluke? That tank also has my elephantnose, African butterfly fish, and Green ghost pleco, all of which are quite sensitive to antibiotics.