Basic Setup Needs for a Marine Tank

[lduncan]

email them to [email protected] and i can post them here. (I have some plenty of space where I can host them). Otherwise you'll need to sign up for a service like photobucket.

Layton

[Warren]

Or read this, it tells you how to add them to your posts:

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/writing_article ... um_images/

[Control]

Looks like I can do it with my server, I 'll try this way first.

Aaron

[chimera]

Instead of putting opinions with reasons forward most of you have attacked my tanks instead without properly explaining why you should not show the systems and why they go wrong

attacked your tank specifically? i dont think so. attacking your theory that a beginner can setup a successful small tank for under $500 given that they have no experience and initially no idea what they are doing? yes - given that they are BETTER OFF spending more money initially and having a tank that will not cause them undue stress, time and money.

Just remember - it's all about the BEGINNER here - not you, not me, not anyone else who have had moderate to advanced experience in reefing. Repeating myself from before - it appears that you have vast knowledge of this hobby Control, but to expect a beginner to jump in on the hobby and expect a small tank to run fine I disagree with. They will spend more money attempting to fix it when things go wrong. There is no doubting the initial/up front costs could be as little as $500,... but how long will that last? Even if it does go smoothly and they dont run into problems, it does not take long to double this cost JUST on test kits and other almost necessary devices (eg: refractometer etc) All everyone is asking here (I believe) is to look at the big picture.

[Control]

Please show me where I said that.

At the start of this I said to show all the systems, and state the pro's and con's of all the systems then people can understand why you shouldn't have a small tank.

your theory that a beginner can setup a successful small tank for under $500

I did not say that at all. Please show me where you saw this.

The closest thing that I said to that would be when I implied that a beginner could keep a couple of fish in a two foot tank when I refered to my daughters tank.

Anyone with half a brain could keep two small fish in a saltwater tank that size just by doing regular water changes and using a simple filter and heater. Two clowns don't tend to create alot of waste.

[chimera]

Control, dont take this personally, I am discussing this with you on a level ground here, if I have interpreted your comments incorrectly, then apologies - unfortunately the written word can be ambiguous at the best of times and is often the cause of many arguments on this site! This is how I have interpreted your comments in this thread...

If we do it this way it will take for ever.

How about setting it up based on a differant cost basses

$ 500

$1000

And so on.

Work out the must haves within the budget for each type of tank, fish only, basic reef, advanced reef. State the obvious pro's and con's without trying to confuse people with things that they are better off learning over time with experiance.

From this Layton responds with:

$500 - lucky to get an appropriate sized tank for that.

$1000 - Maybe a skimmer and half a tank.

You have to be realistic. Tell someone they can do a tank for $1000 and they'll be put off the hobby for life when they have poor results from it.

Now you have to assume that quoting a figure like $500 in the first place means you believe it can be done for this price. Otherwise you would have said $2000, $3000 etc

You did come back with

Where did I say that $500 dollars would set up a full reef tank?

Which is probably where things got muddled up. It needs to be stated that FO, FOWLR and full REEF tank as they differ greatly (but chances are the average beginner would not know this)

However you then say

Besides that if I had a spear $500 dollars I would prove you all wrong with ease. And have already done so in the past.

Im sure you were meaning $500 for 2 clown fish in a 2 foot tank here? Ultimately, perhaps YOU could do it for that amount of money, given your experience. All I am saying is that I dont want to give the beginner the wrong impressions quoting figures anywhere near $500, given that they will need to spend at least double this just to maintain the tank. It is an addictive and expensive hobby, combining these two can suck alot of money from the consumers pocket!

I'm not a "perfect consumer" and would make allot of the gear myself. Are you all suggesting that anyone starting this would not be able to do that?

Yes I am implying this, not everyone, but I'd say a large majority of beginners.

Even outside of the money factor, I think its just cruel to keep a couple of clowns in a small tank with next to nothing in it.... then again when you come back with "who said I wouldnt put anything in it" you're blowing the low budget theory out of the water (excuse the pun again) doesn't it?

Anyway, this is an argument that is going around in circles. How about we get back on track. Who is going to establish a list of items with APPROXIMATE (or even better a range of) costs for each item? Each item should have a brief description of what it is/does with a "mandatory" or "optional" next to it and reasons why. As said before, this could then become a sticky for anyone interested.

[Wok]

Hi Guys... I have been reading this post with great interest. and have picked up a lot from all of you.

Chimera has nicely summarised what is important so far... however it still hasn't answered fully what misnoma first asked about.

I too would like to set up a small 'marine' tank at some stage in the future (wife and finances permitting :roll: )

I know that it is cruel to see 2 clowns and a anenome in a small tank like they do in the lfs... but do you guys reckon that they would do a lot better with more room and similar setup without the skimmers, sump and stuff?

I mean they are difficult to breed at the best of times... Pies has shown that in his write ups about his tank...

So don't you think that it would be possible to house 2 clowns and a anenome in a 3t tank using existing freshwater equipment (canister filter, fluros, tank) and the addition of sand, saltwater, extra hard corals if need be? be sufficient to keep the clowns happy for a few years at least? I mean if they get good at keeping the clowns for a few years then the bug will hit and then spend the thousands on a proper setup

With the knowledge that all you marine guys have there has to be a good way to put together a small marine to get people interested and then learn by a 'Hands On' approach instead of reading all the theory and then putting it in place. (I know I pick up things much faster if I have the thing up and running and then ask for assistance as i go along... (trying to ask the right questions ahead of time) It will be like caring for your first child... everyone will tell you what is best for the baby but in the end you will ultimately decide what YOU think is best.....

I believe it is the same with fish... everyone does not have the intent of killing fish straight away, and untill they succeed with something small(ish) first they may never get to the stage of a full blown tank like Pies or some of you other guys have (I have only seen pies tank so far :oops: )

Sorry about the babling but I just had to let it out.

Cheers

Wok

[Control]

Now you have to assume that quoting a figure like $500 in the first place means you believe it can be done for this price. Otherwise you would have said $2000, $3000 etc

This is the problem. you as well have just taken a small part of what I said and misquoted id completly just like everyone else did

Weather or not I beleive it can be done is not relivant

Only a small part of what I said was quoted by layton.

I also stated "fish only, basic reef, advanced reef. State the obvious pro's and con's".

Im sure you were meaning $500 for 2 clown fish in a 2 foot tank here? Ultimately, perhaps YOU could do it for that amount of money, given your experience. All I am saying is that I dont want to give the beginner the wrong impressions quoting figures anywhere near $500, given that they will need to spend at least double this just to maintain the tank. It is an addictive and expensive hobby, combining these two can suck alot of money from the consumers pocket!

No I didn't mean that.

What I meant and said was to show a setup that would cost $500 dollars and tell them why they should not do it

State the obvious pro's and con's

.

You do not tell someone that they souldn't and/or can't do something without explaining why.

Besides that if I had a spear $500 dollars I would prove you all wrong with ease. And have already done so in the past.

This was clearly a statement of my abilities in a debate of weather it could be done, at no time did I say a beginner should do it and I did not raise the issue.

You will also see that I asked people to stop misquoting what I was saying.

This received the intelegent reply of "then stop talking rubbish".

It is not my responsability to teach people in this forum how to read english and interperate it as it is clearly written.

Aaron.

To continue I think we need more ideas on the layout, we have some that seem good but I'd like to see more and will do one myself.

We also need more comments on them.

[chimera]

You do not tell someone that they souldn't and/or can't do something without explaining why

quite clearly.

It is not my responsability to teach people in this forum how to read english and interperate it as it is clearly written

you are not doing yourself any favours by making smart arse remarks like that either. perhaps you should be a little more specific in the future, otherwise why do you think people have been misquoting you.

well Control, you can make a start and show us what you believe will make a good successful beginners tank. start off with a FO tank, list the minimum items required and pro's and con's of each. we can then debate those finer points from there.

[suphew]

Well to be honest I think Petplanet pretty much covered the requirements of a basic setup, and there have been some good comments for extra things that should really be added.

The problem with trying to do this in this format is that it gets very long and confusing for a beginner to read. Maybe we need to have a sticky post (or similar) edited by only one person (a moderater?) for each level of setup, with a seperate post like this one to argue the merits and get some level of agreement (hahaha :lol: ) for what should be included.

[chimera]

cool, so create a new thread and make a start

[Pies]

WOK - You can definatly setup a 3 foot marine tank, I wouldn't if it was me, but I have seen a few. Require a little more patience and skill, but can be done.

I wouldn't reccomend setting up a tank without a skimmer, regardless of size. There are lots of 2nd hand skimmers around, and some fair priced new ones. My reccomendation would be to buy one once, many people have brought a cheap one and had to repurchase later on because it wasn't up to the task. Do it once, do it right.

After you have your tank and skimmer, think on the sump. As stated somewhere else (this thread?) I would highly reccomend one. But you can do it without one (I think briananemone runs a small tank without one).

Then source your rock. This is enough to get things going, you already have freshwater so you should be able to find heaters, tubes for lighting, pumps for circulation but if you can't you will need them.

Test kits etc are necessary, but I am sure you can borrow some initially if you can't afford to buy them. Invest in them at some stage though, testing water is key to success.

Keep the bioload low in a small tank is probably the key to success, over stocking will only cause problems and increase expense as you will need to work so much harder to maintain water quality.

Patience is free, hold off addition of fish for as long as possible.

Anemone for the clowns. I am sure that you can keep an Anemone in a shallow tank under fluros (pref T5s), but a halide is you best bet. You can go DIY (from Radium) and get a bulb and ballast all ready to go for less than $250.00, build you own reflector.

Don't be put off starting, its such a rewarding hobby. But I urge you to be realistic about the costs. You should be able to filter out the guff around the place but if you can spend a few thousand dollars you will get there, it may work out less (or more) but if you are prepared to see it through you can have successful tank.

So to make my point clear, you will need all the obvious things like heaters, lighting, thermomotor that you would need in a freshwater tank plus:

A skimmer is a must

Rock is a must

Test kits and refractomoter are a must

Circulation pumps (2 or more) are a must

Timers for lights and pumps are a must

That should get you going. but there is more, saltwater supply, freshwater supply etc etc.

Do it, you will love it, but there is a cost and this is the reason saltwater is less popular than freshwater, ultimatly its more expensive. Right or wrong, its a fact.

good luck

Pie

[Brianemone]

After you have your tank and skimmer, think on the sump. As stated somewhere else (this thread?) I would highly reccomend one. But you can do it without one (I think briananemone runs a small tank without one).

even if i where planning on keeping a smaller tank long term i would still have a sump (very very worth it)

i dont have one now cause i downgraded when we moved, i regret that now but i have learnt from it the hard way

i agree that skimmers are a must for a newbie, just look at the crap they pull out.

[Wok]

Thanks Pies

so for a 'freshie' to get into marines is possible with minimal cost then. all I really need is a skimmer of some type. (for now).

Where would the live rock be placed if I don't have a sump? in the main tank?

test kits I would agree with you as getting the water just right is VERY important

Sump... yes will be done once I decided that yes I will want a more permanent setup with a better proportioned tank. but as I have proposed already with regards to having an existing 'freshie' tank.

Bio load will be low because of only having 2 clowns and maybe a shrimp or 2 (Thats it.... anymore and then will have to look at a more proper setup with sumps, skimmers, etc....)

pumps.. would a power head and the outflow from a cannister filter do the job? :-?

Water changes... Natural seawater or Artificial? :-?

Costs... more than 'freshies'... expected that from reading all other posts

Lighting.. will a double tube light hood be sufficient with 2 dayglow tubes?

If you guys think that this would work for 2 clowns and an anenome, and sand (basics) then I think we have pretty much worked out a system that a Newbie can do with minimal cost if they are moving from 'freshie' to marine. (ie... what Pet Planet has suggested as an initial setup)

Like you have all said anything more then you will need to shell out the thousands but for somebody like me... it will get me started and who knows what I would have in a couple of years

I started with cold water fishes first to see if I could keep them alive and breed and then moved onto Tropicals which is a bit more expensive but exciting, with different challenges and I guess the ultimate move would be to have a very nice tropical reef setup. (Pies tank comes to mind )

Thanks

Wok

[kevan]

Do not Keep a anemone with only two tubes they require more light than this . Fish and shrimps fine .

[Wok]

What if is shallow?

4 tubes then? (other freshies may have to go without :roll: )

[cookie extreme]

the fish keeping hobby is sucking you in to the black hole already - reef tank addiction!!!!! its worse then drugs, say good by to your retirement fund if you have one, if not nevermind because you will never know what one looks like either

[kevan]

4 should be fine .

[Control]

First Things first.

I suggest we stick to one tank at a time or the info will end up all over the place as it already has.

Shall we start at the bottom?

Everyone that can and wants to help with this try to come up with the most efficient system for fish only without exceeding $500 and no DIY If someone can do this it's just a bonus for that person and it will just complicate things.

Stick to the system itself for now tank, stand, Filtering, and lights to $500

We can add the rest after to make it easier to process the info that people put forward.

Please say very briefly why you think each part of your system would be best.

When we come to a conclusion and a finished layout with the pros & cons we can start a new post and put it in there.

Then we can move on to the next one back in this post which would be a $500 simple reef.

(The write up for the problems on that one will be big but we will have to make them as understandable as possible for a beginner).

Aaron.

[livebearer_breeder]

Maybe this discusion deserves a New Thread.

Shae

[Control]

the fish keeping hobby is sucking you in to the black hole already - reef tank addiction!!!!! its worse then drugs, say good by to your retirement fund if you have one, if not nevermind because you will never know what one looks like either

It's true and you may think that you will still have your tank in the end but you will not have the money to power them.

Aaron.

[Wok]

Control... good suggestion

what about starting with 2 clowns and a anenome... I think most people would be interested in getting this going than just fish.

As you can see above for someone that is going from 'freshie' to marine it is possible with the addition of a skimmer and a couple test kits etc.

For me it is a realistic opportunity to get my feet wet without shelling out a lot of dosh... or should I say it is the start of a serious addiction :lol:

As with the equipment petplanet had a good suggestion as a start. what needed to be added was the skimmer and there you have it (most 'freshies' would need that equipment to get started in tropicals anyway)

A new 3ft tank from Gregg at Tanks2u would be able to do a 3ft tank for $80 (estimating here, but he is cheap and good) best of all he will make to order.

Just my opinion.

[chimera]

how about we continue this discussion on the newly created threads for EACH type of tank that most people would want to setup? I've created all 3 now coz some people might want to have their input only based on their experience

[lduncan]

YOU CAN NOT DO A TANK UNDER $500!!!!!

What is the point in attempting to?

Can someone just put this thread out of it's misery and kill it? Please.

[livebearer_breeder]

I dont think it should be killed, Its one of the best threads of read on this part of the site, Ive certainly learnt alot.

Thanks Chimera, This Thread needed some division in discustion.

Shae