Basic Setup Needs for a Marine Tank

[AW]

Its pretty easy to keep a couple of clowns happy in a 2ft (sat on a bench top) with an internal cannister, small heater, say $300 all up.

Would this not be considered a marine aquarium? I would even venture to say some coral would do better in this set up than the supposedly "be all end all" systems today.

I remember a certain pet shop with a 1200x450x450 tank with trickle filter that kept the most sort after anemone in NZ for years, the anemone is no longer around due to moving into a $5000+ system

Having a $4-5000 set up is no guarantee for success, knowldge is and actually putting it into practice.

And the line I like to quote the most, the fish (or coarls or whatever you want to keep) don't read the books.

Cheers

[reef]

My thoughts are min $4k, if this is outside the budget then maybe the hobby is not for you.

$4k sound a lot but when you add everything up it is not hard to get to that figure.

Water quality is very important and you can’t get good water quality with a $1k, Corals/fish would survive but that is about it.

Too many people treat fish/coral as disposable items which they are not.

It is getting harder to get quality livestock in the country due to world demand and in a few years it will only get harder.

So when setting up a tank it is best to look at the long-term health of the fish/coral not just short term.

The hobby in New Zealand has only got better as more and more hobbyist is getting better quality equipment.

The best advice is to get the best equipment from the start, you will only save money in the long term as you won’t have to upgrade.

[Aquatopia]

Yes, but most people don't start big. I always say to customers start with a 3ft tank minimum. You could do it for $500 and it would work. No/dirt cheap skimmer, powerheads and rocks and a fluro or two. Gets you in the game. That could be step one.

Hi, Im sorry, I know Im new to this forum, and i dont want to make waves, but I have to agree with Layton on his comments regarding what "petplanet / Michael" has written.

Its just not on - for the hobbyist OR (more importantly) the livestock he is potentially gonna kill - to advise someone to start small in this hobby. They will spend money on expensive fish and invariably lose them That will put them off in a lot of cases (not all) and they will leave the hobby.

And now to really put the cat amongst the pigeons. I have to say, that it would not be in a pet shop owners best interests to be putting people off and telling them it costs thousands not hundreds to do it right. So they WILL say "sure you can do it on the cheap". I would prefer to see it explained properly from the start. Then if they can't afford it, if they are REALLY interested they will go away and save. And come back when they can. And thats the right way - for them and for the live animals they will become responsible for.

Only with a greater amount of experience should someone consider a smaller reef.

This is not a dig, but it is certainly my opinion, and I hope it is taken in the right context.

[Snowman]

Well that rules me out for a marine setup, for $4000 i could have half a dozen (at least, probably closer to eight) tropical tanks with a lot of fish/plants or one marine setup.....looks like i'll be staying with tropicals LOL

[Brianemone]

that right you could

i guess it comes down to personal taste

[Snowman]

And budget, if i tried to spend that on a tank the missus would make me sleep in the car LOL, but if i win lotto i'm definetly keen as there's a huge range of corals, anenomes and fish that catch my eye : -)>

[Control]

I would appreciate it if people would stop deliberately misquoting me.

Where did I say that $500 dollars would set up a full reef tank?

I specifically said a range in price and a range of different systems and inhabitants.

We are all well aware of how much money allot of you have spent and it is not necessary for a beginner to spend that. Are you people deliberately trying to put beginners off the idea of getting started with marines, if so why the more people that have marines the better for everyone.

If you think that it is appropriate for a beginner to risk that sort of money on a system when they have nowhere near the skills or knowledge to even run a basic let alone a fully laid out reef system then I suggest you all agree to cover the beginners costs when he realizes that he is in over his head.

Besides that if I had a spear $500 dollars I would prove you all wrong with ease. And have already done so in the past.

I'm not a "perfect consumer" and would make allot of the gear myself.

Are you all suggesting that anyone starting this would not be able to do that?

The idea of this was to set up all possibilities for beginners and that has already been clearly stated.

$500 - lucky to get an appropriate sized tank for that.

Appropriate for what?

You have to be realistic. Tell someone they can do a tank for $1000 and they'll be put off the hobby for life when they have poor results from it.

They would only have poor results if they try to keep the wrong thing in the systems that they have which is what you have suggested they do.

I think this attitude is totally wrong. The best way to get people started is the way which will be most successful. Telling someone they can do a tank for $1000 is setting them up for disaster.

If you need $1000 dollars to put a basic saltwater tank together with fish and even a couple of mushrooms and leathers that would run well then I don't think mush of your basic skills.

$5000 would be my starting point for a 4 footer full reef, which should be the minimum size for someone starting out.

I find this so funny considering how many people show very successful

systems that keep SPS's that cost them a quater of that.

Yes, but most people don't start big. I always say to customers start with a 3ft tank minimum. You could do it for $500 and it would work. No/dirt cheap skimmer, powerheads and rocks and a fluro or two. Gets you in the game. That could be step one.

Dead right, no one should ever tell someone to spend large amounts of money on something they know nothing about. That is an amazingly irresponsible thing to do.

They have to learn the basics first.

For a fish only maybe $4,000

Are you seriously telling us that you would need to spend $4000 to keep some fish alive in saltwater.

I can keep a couple of small marines in a goldfish bowl with a small air driven carbon filter and a fortnightly 25% water change.

That is not starting big. 4 foot really is a minimum tank size for a beginner to have the highest chance of success.

Success of what?

Ira

What would you consider NECESSARY for a FOWLR that would add up to that much? By my math, for an average 4ft being on the high side for prices..

4ft tank Dunno, say $1000 inc stand.

Base rock: $300

Skimmer: $500

A couple flouro fittings $100

RO $200?(Haven't looked at prices)

Heater: $30

2-3 Power heads: $100

Test kits $100

Refractometer $120

Finally something intellegent to make a start with.

The RO is only neccssary in some areas. People need to check the local council water readings in there area, they are available.

Then add whatever livestock on top of that

Stick to the systems and just state what they are best suited for.

salt, plumbing, sump, pumps, substrate, livestock

What is the point of this list? For what system would you like to suggest it for? Or are you just being argumentative.

People don't have to use salt.

The idea is to show how to set up a tank, not how much you can spend on the inhabitants.

Pomereef

Its just not on - for the hobbyist OR (more importantly) the livestock he is potentially gonna kill - to advise someone to start small in this hobby. They will spend money on expensive fish and invariably lose them That will put them off in a lot of cases (not all) and they will leave the hobby.

Are you saying that people should spend thousands of dollars on something that they no nothing about. If so would you be happy to except responsibility for the cost when the beginner realizes that the reason every thing turn to crap was because he doesn't know what he's doing and has bitten off more than he can chew.

And now to really put the cat amongst the pigeons. I have to say, that it would not be in a pet shop owners best interests to be putting people off and telling them it costs thousands not hundreds to do it right. So they WILL say "sure you can do it on the cheap". I would prefer to see it explained properly from the start. Then if they can't afford it, if they are REALLY interested they will go away and save. And come back when they can. And thats the right way - for them and for the live animals they will become responsible for.

Not true. They would make more money reselling the big systems that people failed with by getting in over their heads.

Only with a greater amount of experience should someone consider a smaller reef.

Define the type of reef you are talking about because as it is your statement is completely untrue.

Its pretty easy to keep a couple of clowns happy in a 2ft (sat on a bench top) with an internal cannister, small heater, say $300 all up.

Would this not be considered a marine aquarium? I would even venture to say some coral would do better in this set up than the supposedly "be all end all" systems today.

And thousands have done so with great success.

Having a $4-5000 set up is no guarantee for success, knowldge is and actually putting it into practice.

And allot of the people running the expensive systems have found that yet they still say that you should start at a level that you would not have a hope in @#$ of understanding.

Why is this the case?

It is getting harder to get quality livestock in the country due to world demand and in a few years it will only get harder.

The reason it is hard for us to get allot of what is available is because we are such a small market compared to the US and Europe.

Telling people that to learn how to keep marines requires thousands of dollars, which it doesn’t, is not going to increase our market share because you are scaring people away from them.

The hobby in New Zealand has only got better as more and more hobbyist is getting better quality equipment.

People have kept carols for decades with the same success as anyone else can clam without all the expensive gear that companies try to sell us these days.

Aaron

[Aquatopia]

Not sure - but i think this is all getting mixed up with people talking different money for different things. I think it would be a good idea to lay this thread to rest aye. Im not on here to get heated....

[lduncan]

I'll bite once. Where to start.

I would appreciate it if people would stop deliberately misquoting me.

Stop writing rubbish.

Are you people deliberately trying to put beginners off the idea of getting started with marines, if so why the more people that have marines the better for everyone.

We've been through this point before. What sort of credibility would I have if I advised someone they could setup a successful system for some of the price ranges you are claiming.

If you think that it is appropriate for a beginner to risk that sort of money on a system when they have nowhere near the skills or knowledge to even run a basic let alone a fully laid out reef system then I suggest you all agree to cover the beginners costs when he realizes that he is in over his head.

Well that's the problem. Poor advice, and lack of information from the start. The price I have suggested is for a basic system. No calcium reactor no dosing pumps or extra equipment.

Besides that if I had a spear $500 dollars I would prove you all wrong with ease. And have already done so in the past.

Elaborate.

The idea of this was to set up all possibilities for beginners and that has already been clearly stated.

I see you've covered the "setup for failure" topic quite well.

Appropriate for what?

Appropriate for a beginner to have the most chance of success.

They would only have poor results if they try to keep the wrong thing in the systems that they have which is what you have suggested they do.

Which is invariable what people do. Sure they go buy a 3 foot tank, then they see the blue tang which they must have, even though the tank is too small, so they purchase it anyway it dies within a week. Then after numerous episodes like this they decide that they need a bigger tank. And that what they have just purchased, including livestock death is a total write off.

If you need $1000 dollars to put a basic saltwater tank together with fish and even a couple of mushrooms and leathers that would run well then I don't think mush of your basic skills.

I don't think much of you're advice.

I find this so funny considering how many people show very successful

systems that keep SPS's that cost them a quater of that.

Total rubbish, prove it.

Dead right, no one should ever tell someone to spend large amounts of money on something they know nothing about. That is an amazingly irresponsible thing to do.

No, amazingly irresponsible is advising someone to spend money on something you're claiming they know nothing about.

Are you seriously telling us that you would need to spend $4000 to keep some fish alive in saltwater.

I can keep a couple of small marines in a goldfish bowl with a small air driven carbon filter and a fortnightly 25% water change.

That must be one impressive setup. :roll: What's your point?

Success of what?

Again, success in keeping livestock alive and healthy, for as long as possible.

Stick to the systems and just state what they are best suited for.

Umm, livestock must be budgeted for. After all, it's the point of all the equipment.

What is the point of this list? For what system would you like to suggest it for? Or are you just being argumentative.

People don't have to use salt.

The idea is to show how to set up a tank, not how much you can spend on the inhabitants.

I thought the idea was to give a realistic approach to what a beginner should expect to spend on a system to be successful.

I'll give up at this point. The rest is also crap, I'm sorry but is just plain misleading advice. Struggle to find any redeming comment in that lot.

Layton

[reef]

People have kept carols for decades with the same success as anyone else can clam without all the expensive gear that companies try to sell us these days.

Yes they have been keeping corals for decades, however they were not the best in health.

No one in NZ had any acropora, if they did it was half dead.

Only in the last 3-4 years the quality of tanks have really improved to the availability of quality skimmers etc.

In the past all you could buy was a berlin and most hobbyist did not even skim much if at all.

The quality of tanks now are really good compared to European tanks. In the past tanks in NZ were well below what they are now.

All this has improved with the Internet and we are getting more hardcore reefers which pass on the knowledge.

The reason it is hard for us to get allot of what is available is because we are such a small market compared to the US and Europe.

Telling people that to learn how to keep marines requires thousands of dollars, which it doesn’t, is not going to increase our market share because you are scaring people away from them.

I am aware of this being the largest importer of marine fish/coral.

However do we want to get to the stage that we treat coral and fish like disposable items as they are in the US.

It is too cheap so hobbyist just replace the item instead of getting good filtration.

Yes you can keep corals/fish alive for less than $4k, but in the long term hobbyist will have more problems and kill more fish before they upgrade. Why not do it right the first time.

Our market share will never increase and that is a good thing. As I am more in favour of getting people in the hobby that can afford it.

Sometime I really feel sorry for the fish as I am packing them, it feels like I am sending them on a death sentence thinking how long will they live for.

Lets say 8000 fish arrive in the country every 12 months. We would have about say 200 hobbyist. That is 40 fish each per year. Where are they all?? I have not seen any tank with more than say 20 fish.

So that is why I am in favour of getting hobbyist that can afford it into the hobby.

I find this so funny considering how many people show very successful

systems that keep SPS's that cost them a quater of that.

Love to see these tanks. I do understand that people have different perception what a good tank looks like. To me a successful tank is a tank that has no algae; corals look good and are growing.

[petplanet]

Put me down for 1 or 2 fish lost a year.....

$500 tank

Tank 3ft 180litre $99.95

Heater $24.95

Twin 3ft Fluro $119.95

2 x better quality tubes for marines $60.00

2 x Powerheads $100.00

10kg bag of coral sand $45.00

5kg of dry coral rock $50.00

$500 well spent. Basic/budget equipment. Heaps of water to keep two clowns and an anemone. Much better than an AR380 34 litre clownfish death camp.

Sure, tell them about test kits, hydrometers, books, food etc, etc but don't scare them of before they start. They will buy some stuff and pass on others.

Unfortunatly most people take the attitude of if there is no problem, there is no testing. Most of us learn best by the error part of trial and error!

[Brianemone]

you last mentioned that your anemone is shrinking??? doesnt sound too happy to me

if you know what you are doing and have connections then you can setup a small tank for less and have it bee successfull, but that is a small tank and after some experiance (that is gained by having a larger more expensive tank)

the fact is rock for a tank four foot in size is going to cost a few hundred

there is no escaping that (other than knowing someone that is getting rid of it)

[Control]

Brilliant Petplanet

That make two replies in this post that are useful

Ira had the other.

My suggestion to improve your list would be to drop the anemone and put some small soft corals like small leathers buttons etc you cannot keep anemones with fluorescents.

These should not be added to the cost. We should be showing a system with its rough cost and spec then state what could be kept in it. What they do with that info is up to them.

We will also need to have a small write up on each to give information on the maintenance required and problems related to it because they do vary in what they need to keep them healthy.

Ira

It may be better not to add existing gear, if they have it that’s just a bonus for them and not everyone will be in that situation.

Keep stock out of the prices they are things that they add slowly later.

Can you come up with something more accurate in this way?

Everyone

Please put specs in your lists.

Ok so far we have a $500 and approx $2500 does anyone have any helpful alterations to them that stays in their budget or a system in another price bracket.

Brianemone

the fact is rock for a tank four foot in size is going to cost a few hundred

That depends on what he wants in it and how much stock he plains on putting in it.

Rock can be slowly added over time as needed to help the system based on how much stock he wants to put in the tank. It doesn’t have to all be there from the start and allot of people can only afford to do it this way.

The biggest problem he has is the lighting.

Aaron.

[cookie extreme]

how many fish did you buy petplanet? 2 or 3 ??

years (20 or so) ago i had a tank around 80 ltr. was huge for a beginner then, with 11 fish including emperor angel. all but one died on white spot!!!

i almost gave up saltwater then! i got no advise on feef keeping then!!

having keept marines for over 2 decades now i have to admit that some things have improved to the better, esp. for SPS corals.

others might be losing out like catalaphylia, goniopora,some LPS etc. i agree with you that it is still possible to have a reasonable saltwater tank (not reef tank) on a low budget, but would recommend newbees to invest as much as their pocket allows on lighting, tank size etc. because what you reallu want is something to be proud of and be able to show to your friends. and a 20 litr nemo tank with 2 clown fish and some rock doesn't quite cut it!!!!! and if it not for your friends its for your inner self, it makes you feel great to look at a living reef, not a couple poor fish swimming around a silly rock in a 20 ltr tank. i haven't lost many fish over the last ten years, next to what my box fish killed off, and i put it down to knowledge, experience and the right setup. what ever that may be!!!

[reef]

Deltec hangon skimmer $700

gravel $50

tank$ stand $700

Tunze stream $650

rock 50kg $500

t5 lights 4x39w $600

salifert test kits , ph,po4,calcium,kh,nitrate, $150

magnet cleaner $30

books $300

carbon $20

po4 remover $40

ro unit $250

refractometer $140

chiller $600

heaters $50

gravel cleaner $30

2x perc clowns $100

blue tang $80

Anemone $100

sixline wrasse $70

4x leathers $300

zoos $100

mushrooms $200

torch corals $120

brain coral $80

Total $5960

Now that is a quality basic setup, no crap gear and the fish/coral will be happy for years, no need to upgrade in 4 months.

I probably mist a few things, very light on livestock, and items like salt mix, etc,

Could be done a bit cheaper, but at least there is a good chance the fish/coral will be alive in 12 months.

If going fish only you could save a$1000 or so.

[lduncan]

Finally a more realistic approach.

You could probably get by without a chiller running t5's, add a nitrite and ammonia test kit while starting. Can do without books internet can be a good resource if you're willing to spend the time searching. There may be other options than streams for smaller tanks. But of course no one I know that has ever purchased streams has regretted spending the money.

But those are all things you should budget for.

And finally someone who is factoring in the cost of live stock! What's the point in having the equipment and tank without anything in it?

Petplanet, it disappoints me that that is the sort of advice you are giving to customers.

Layton

[Ira]

Tunze stream $650

t5 lights 4x39w $600

chiller $600

books $300

Streams are overkill for a FOWLR, same for the T5s, you want that much light DIY a MH or buy a second hand one, but you don't need the light. Chiller, unnecessary especially if you don't have the MHs heating up the water. If the tank is still too warm, get a fan, my tank I wouldn't need anything except leaving the lids off if it wasn't for the lights. Books...Replace with $25/month internet account.

I don't include the livestock in pricing because that's a lot more personal and variable, IMO. And since when does fish only include leathers, torch or brain corals? So, that's about $3000 that shouldn't be included in your estimate.

[lduncan]

There has to be some sort of budget for livestock. Also that pricing was clearly for a reef setup. as stated at the bottom, less for a fish only.

Layton

[Brianemone]

That depends on what he wants in it and how much stock he plains on putting in it.

Rock can be slowly added over time as needed to help the system based on how much stock he wants to put in the tank. It doesn’t have to all be there from the start and allot of people can only afford to do it this way.

The biggest problem he has is the lighting.

duh

who said you need to go buy it all at once, the fact is you can do what im doing and buy a metal halide this month and then the next one in another months time then the next month get some more equiptment, its going to take a year to get all the equiptment i want/need but hey at least its going to be worth it

[reef]

Rock can be slowly added over time as needed to help the system based on how much stock he wants to put in the tank. It doesn’t have to all be there from the start and allot of people can only afford to do it this way.

That could be a problem, you cant just keep adding base rock as it will pollute the tank. best to do it all at once.

[reef]

The pricing I gave was for a tank in the lounge. Not a DIY ugly looking thing in the corner with no hood.

You can go cheaper but it is still going to cost for something that looks good.

In Auckland it has been getting hotter every year so that is why I included a chiller, even t5s give off a lot of heat.

The stream is overkill but at least it will be around in a year’s time and no need to upgrade pumps every year. Even fish like good current in a tank.

I can think of lots of times when I was always buying bits here and there, best to just do it all at once. You will save more money this way in the long run. When you buy a home theater system you dont buy half the speakers.

As I mentioned the price is on a quality system that will be able to house almost anything. At least this way the fish/coral have a chance to survive a long time.

[petplanet]

you last mentioned that your anemone is shrinking??? doesnt sound too happy to me

That anemone is a Heteractis magnifica that I brought from another store out of there tank lit with twin fluros, put in my T5 lit tank, and yes it shrank, now under twin metal halides and growing. I would go for a Macrodactyla doreensis.

how many fish did you buy petplanet? 2 or 3 ??

180 litres - up to 25cm of fish - that is the recommended stocking rate according the the Practical Fishkeeping Magazine.

This is a basic $500 system - later add skimmer, upgrade lights, gradually add livestock. No one sets up all at once.

As for skimmers, I have been busy with my shop so mine has been U/S for two months and I have not done a water change. It all looks good. Baby hammer corals are growing nicely, pearl bubbles and anemone are way to big for the space they have. My tank is about 280 litres and had 9 fish (about 69 cm of fish). No problems. There are less now but they were moved into my shop display tank.

If people only started with $5000 systems, how many people do you think would be in this hobby. I know I wouldn't have started a tank.

[Pies]

An interesting thread in many ways, with some comercial 'flavor' to it from my observation point.

If people only started with $5000 systems, how many people do you think would be in this hobby. I know I wouldn't have started a tank.

My question to Petplanet is: Are you promoting the fact that marines can be done for a 'budget' ($500ish) because you know its going to be easier to sell them than come in and say 'spend 5k +'.

When I started my first marine tank I tried to do it 'cheap', not dirt cheap but cheap. My observation is that $1,000.00 does not go very far.

I also find some comments about stocking levels interesting. 9 Fish in a 250 litre tank, I have 15 fish in a 1400 litre tank. Still though again I guess its good for the customers to know they can cram them into their small tanks.

Piemania

[lduncan]

My question to Petplanet is: Are you promoting the fact that marines can be done for a 'budget' ($500ish) because you know its going to be easier to sell them than come in and say 'spend 5k +'.

That's what I was thinking, yet hesitant to say.

[lduncan]

180 litres - up to 25cm of fish - that is the recommended stocking rate according the the Practical Fishkeeping Magazine.

Stocking rates quoted like this are meaningless. It implies that you could put a 10" clown tang in a 180 Litre tank and it would be fine. Which is clearly not true.

Layton