Too much carbon-beware

[cracker]

OMG Fay...what've you done!

They'll be right....

[ZEOvitANZ]

ahh zeovit as well. hmm.

Layton, I didn't realise Reef was using zeovit as well ?!

If he is not, be careful what you are saying. You are starting to sound like a broken record.

Brendan Zeovit NZ/Aussie

[Fay]

I wish to make clear that zeovit had nothing to do with my bleaching problems I have been using zeovit for some time now with no problems.

I was told when I purchased the carbon (not from zeovit nz) that it was high quality and to use 250mls wish I was doing for a couple of months, until I was reading up on the intructions from zeovit which said 600mls forgetting what I was told I went from 250mls to 600mls but I think it is more where I was running it in the sump that caused the problem to much flow.

[Fay]

Cracker Has seen my reef so he knows how good those LTA's were

[Control]

Reef

I read in one of your post that you started an algae filter, if so why are you using carbon with an algae filter.

Using carbon completely controdicts the purpose of all forms of algae filters.

When the algae grows it releases vitamins etc into the tant that are very important to corals.

This is one of the main reasons why you should not use carbon in reef tanks.

Skimmer's don't remove alot of these.

[cracker]

And where does this information come from Mr Control.

Most natural Reefs would not have as much high Algae/Coral ratios like the few of us using Fuges.

Have you been doing Marine for long?

(Interested).

[reef]

Using carbon completely controdicts the purpose of all forms of algae filters.

When the algae grows it releases vitamins etc into the tant that are very important to corals.

This is one of the main reasons why you should not use carbon in reef tanks.

The algae does not take everything out of the water, especially all the toxins thatn some corals release, eg like leathers.

Algae also releases toxins.

[Fay]

Mr Control,

I also wish to know where you got this info, I'm sure if you ask, most reefers use carbon!!!!!!!

Infact it is in the instructions on ZEOvit that it is an important part of the system.

Fay

ZEOhead

[Control]

And where does this information come from Mr Control.

The most publicized people that I know of, and there are many would be Dr Walter H. Adey and Karen Loveland.

Their research was based on creating living echo systems small and big.

The biggest one that I know of that they did was the Great Barrier Reef Aquarium in Townville Australia.

I think it was about 650,000 gallons and the primary filtration was a huge algae turf scrubber on the roof of the complex.

I set up two tanks to research algae scrubbers and mud filters myself and after three years came to the conclusion that they made a big difference to the health of the corals.

I did take some digital pictures, I'll try to find them

I will be trying a Mangrove Mud filter next on one of my experimental tanks when I replace the front glass, which is cracked.

Most natural Reefs would not have as much high Algae/Coral ratios like the few of us using Fuges.

If this was even close to true then you have just killed off half of the inhabitants of the reefs from starvation, I have seen large areas of upper reef covered in thin layers of basic algae and stripped clean in a few minutes by large schools of blue tangs.

Most of the nutrients that feed the reefs come from the top levels where the algae's thrive and the currents and UV are strongest.

Have you been doing Marine for long?

Sixteen Years using many different methods. For ten of them I ran experimental tanks as well as my main tank.

The algae does not take everything out of the water, especially all the toxins the coral release, like leathers.

Algae also releases toxins.

All Corals release toxins in the battle for space and they have been releasing toxins on each other for millions of years 24/7.

If you place your corals close together they will produce more toxins.

What makes you think that you have this problem in your tank?

Do more water changes

Carbon takes out the good and the bad, removing toxins with one hand and then taking important nutrients with the other, this is not a good solution to the problem.

Possible cause of your bleaching problem.

Corals and Anemones create protective mucus when they need to which protects them from UV and sudden changes in light

The best example of this would be the Anemones that live on the top of reefs and in rock pools in our own country, when they are left high and dry they curl into a dome and slime themselves to block the UV which will burn them well before they would ever dry out while waiting for the water to returns. They also use it to control the light

I think it my be possible that your corals were burnt because they were suddenly starved of a nutrient that they use in there diet to help their defence system which made them unable to protect themselves against your lights.

Just out of curiosity how much life has developed in the mud of your filter.

They are an amazing eco system.

Aaron

[chimera]

interesting points of debate. how much carbon did you test with? i've read varying reports indicating to run carbon 24x7, to only for a few days every few weeks, but rarely not at all. i think the key to carbon is to use a portion small enough that it helps cleanse the water yet doesnt strip it completely. i recall reef that you accidentally used too much carbon which actually bleached all your corals? sounds logical if its used in moderation?

[Control]

I'm sure if you ask, most reefers use carbon!!!!!!!

In most countries that is not the case and they say if you must use carbon to only use it for a short period of time.

Infact it is in the instructions on ZEOvit that it is an important part of the system.

Yes and I'm sure alot of other companies do to.

I prefer to listen to the scientist, not the people making the money.

Aaron

[reef]

Using carbon is a balancing act, not too much and not to little.

Like a protein skimmer carbon will remove good things and bad.

I find it is best to use carbon 24/7 as if you use it on and off you will shock you corals which could lead to bleaching.

I have always used carbon and never had any problems until now and do

notice my polyp extension is much better when using carbon.

I have stopped carbon for now and am using Tunze zeolite, which works a bit like carbon removing pollutants. The tank water does look super clean.

I have no doubt that my bleaching was caused by overuse of carbon and the fact that I put it in a canister filter did not help as it made it more efficient.

Been using the MM for 3 months, the life in the mud is pretty good.

I removed the MM this week as i cant get my nitrate /po4 down to zero. i am trying the zeolite and dose a food every hour to feed the bacteria in the zeolite so they will reduce po4.

Once i get close to zero i will put the mud back as i found that the zeolite was removing all the minerals etc from the mud .

[chimera]

dont mean to state the obvious reef, but you sure your topup and ASW mix doesnt have PO4? from memory, you dont use RODI filtering but straight off the tap? (because of the waters source) or am i thinking of someone else? (like layton!) you appear to have tried for ages to get PO4 down, maybe it's not coming from your tank but the water you're adding to it?? or maybe your test kit doesnt work?!!!

[reef]

i use di water filter, test kit works fine , i have about 3 types of test kits.

My po4 is not that high, about 0.046ppm, just cant get it to zero.

[lduncan]

When the algae grows it releases vitamins etc into the tant that are very important to corals.

What algaes release vitamins, and which vitamins?

I think it my be possible that your corals were burnt because they were suddenly starved of a nutrient that they use in there diet to help their defence system which made them unable to protect themselves against your lights.

Which nutrient would have that effect?

Carbon takes out the good and the bad, removing toxins with one hand and then taking important nutrients with the other, this is not a good solution to the problem.

Depends on your point of view I suppose. Same argument for skimmers. Are you willing not to use one, and risk leaving harmful substances to accumulate, or do you use it, and replace the beneficial things it may remove. Most people would take the latter option.

Sandbeds and macroalgae are by no means a complete filtration method.

or am i thinking of someone else? (like layton!)

Yip it's me Never had a detectable trace of phosphate ever, either!

Layton

[Control]

I always use carbon but only a very small amount.

I use ozone, always have and I always will. I filter the ozone out of the water from the skimmer over a large tray with a thin layer of carbon, about 500ml that is changed every week. Most of the ozone is dispersed because the layer of water is so thin.

In my test tanks I added live carbon as a filter medium after six months and found that the flesh of the corals reduced in size and didn't look as full in their shape. Back to what they looked like was when I bought them within a couple of days.

The main reason I use Ozone is to help maintain a high o2 level in the tanks as it is in a reef, I also use an o2 reactor to help with this

Tomorrow I'll try to find those pictures; they’re on a CD somewhere

Aaron

[Control]

What algae’s release vitamins

All and not just vitamins, there are some algae's that you don't want.

and which vitamins?

I have trouble remembering what I had for breakfast.

I'll try and find some of my books that I have with that research and post that info.

Which nutrient would have that effect?

Not sure I will have to look it up, but you must remember that all living things use many different minerals vitamins and chemicals to aid in their survival, it's a fact of life.

Depends on your point of view I suppose. Same argument for skimmers. Are you willing not to use one

I ran a test tank without a skimmer and I found that the only issues that arose were the lack of degassing that occurred with the water coming from the tank and the low o2 saturation when returned.

But both of these can be sorted in other ways.

or do you use it, and replace the beneficial things it may remove. Most people would take the latter option.

On my main system which is only half running at the moment (that’s another story) I use a skimmer with ozone.

On the top of my tank is an Algae Turf Scrubber, which is groomed once a week

Before the skimmer I have a large refugium with two inches of base, which has a slow, flow.

After the skimmer is the mud filter which gets a haircut once a week.

I don't groom the scrubber and mud filter on the same day.

Then I have the o2 reactor, baffles and finally the calcium reactor.

Sandbeds and macroalgae are by no means a complete filtration method.

Along time ago I would have agreed but many people including myself have proven them to work and be beneficial to the inhabitants over long periods of time.

However I will most likely stay with my main system mentioned above.

When my wife’s health improves I'll get the system running properly again.

I had to leave my job to look after our kid so between taking my wife to hospital all the time and looking after the kids I don't get allot of time to myself.

Aaron

[Brianemone]

are you in auckland control???? id like to see you tank as im coming up this saturday

[reef]

use ozone, always have and I always will

Not many reefers use ozone on a reef tank,

Ozone would be worse than carbon as it kills all the bacteria going through it,

Ozone also seems to raise nitrates.

when i used ozone it was used once a week to polish the water.

[lduncan]

Not sure I will have to look it up, but you must remember that all living things use many different minerals vitamins and chemicals to aid in their survival, it's a fact of life.

Yes, but which one would have this effect, or are you just guessing one would?

I ran a test tank without a skimmer and I found that the only issues that arose were the lack of degassing that occurred with the water coming from the tank and the low o2 saturation when returned.

But both of these can be sorted in other ways.

How did you test that?

Along time ago I would have agreed but many people including myself have proven them to work and be beneficial to the inhabitants over long periods of time.

Actually, they are proven to be cyclic in nature for some nutrients, most importantly phosphate. Sandbeds have a limit to how much phosphate they can absorb, before they start leaching back into the water column. There are many studies which show this.

[ZEOvitANZ]

Good God Reef, i thought you said zeolites don't work ?!

Anyway welcome to the zeovit, woops, zeolite club.

Brendan Zeovit NZ/Aussie

www.zeovit.com

[Control]

Brianemone

No I’m in Christchurch. But as I said earlier My last remaining test tank has a crack in the front and is sitting in the garage waiting for me to fix it, and my main tank is only operating with half of it's system. I lost most of my stock when my test tank cracked after we moved house along time ago.

I 'm trying to find the pics but in the process discovered some boxes of stuff that were never unpacked when we moved into this place. This may take a while.

I'll get them up as soon as possible

Due to my wife’s high medical bills the tanks have been suffering, but I am slowly trying to get them back to the way they were.

She has a condition called Interstitial Cystitis which is an autoimmune disorder related to the bladder. My wife lives in constant pain, which is why I had to leave my job to look after our kids so we don't have any spare money for the tanks at the moment.

reef.

Not many reefers use ozone on a reef tank,

From what I've seen overseas it's a bit of a mix just like carbon, some do and some don't for varying reason.

Ozone would be worse than carbon as it kills all the bacteria going through it,

The amount of bacteria that passes through a skimmer would be probably 0.01 percent of the bacteria that would still be left in the tank let alone the filter. It doesn't need to go through the entire tank system to multiply, it only has to move 0.0001 of a mm.

Bacteria multiply extremely fast when there is food available. I don't think the one's that pass through the skimmer will be missed. And it is a constant.

Yes ozone does kill the living things that pass through it including algae and bacteria but it doesn't strip the water sterile like carbon can

Ozone Also kill's the breading cycle of many fish parasites and diseases, which I have never had in any of my tanks.

Ozone also seems to raise nitrates.

How?

Ozone increases the waters ability to hold o2, which helps the skimmer to foam better and lift out more organic matter, ammonia and proteins, which are the main cause's of the cycles that lead to phosphates, nitrates and nitrites.

The water that returns to the tank is stripped of Ozone by means of a tray of carbon as soon as it leaves the skimmer but the water still has the ability to hold more o2 so you can better simulate the high levels of o2 that reefs have.

when I used ozone it was used once a week to polish the water.

Funny that, I’ve read of people using carbon in that manner as well.

I believe that both carbon and/or ozone when used should be used as a constant to avoid fluctuation in the tanks environment.

For carbon use less and obviously change more often

When Ozone is used the Redox Potential should be maintained at no more than 350 mv and not less than 250. Like every thing else there is allot of debate about what the best level is.

What was the unit you were using? Did it have a controller and ORP probe or were you just continuously dossing the tank at a low level.

Aaron.

[reef]

Reef, i thought you said zeolites don't work ?!

Shows me a post that i said zeolite does not work. I sure you can find a post that i said that you can used zeolite on its own without adding zeofood.

Adding zeofood(acid) makes it more effecient.

[lduncan]

The question is more what the zeolites are doing, rather than whether or not they work. But that's been done to death already.

Also ozone can have the perceived effect of raising nitrates, as it provides an environment more conducive to the oxidative processes which convert ammonia, to nitrite to nitrate. It can lead to a temporary inbalance in production and usage rates of nitrate. Given time, they would settle back to normal. Comes down to the whole equilibrium thing, you make a change in your tank, but your tank takes time to settle back to a new equilibrium.

Layton

[ZEOvitANZ]

Now I have heard it all. Are you sure you are not reef, iduncan ?

Brendan Zeovit NZ/Aussie