Best sump conversion - update 2/2/14

[flymike]

Hi Guys,

I'm not so happy with my sump setup on one of my African cichlid tanks, after a small biblical style flood, failing pump, noisy pump & fish eating, along with other issues.

I'm doing away with the whole sump idea, and shifting to 2 CF1200 canisters and a wave maker

Here's my question

275l tank on a 1m high metal stand with sump on shelf below.

Plan to remove sump and put in a smaller tank on the lower shelf.

- Can I route the ex sump overflow in to the new lower tank and have one of the pick ups from a canister taking from this tank and pumping it up to the main tank? with out to many issues? (like a sump & pump set up, but with a second tank and canister)

or

- Should I set both canisters pick up and return in the main tank, then have a pump setup in the smaller tank pumping up in to the main tank and returning down below via the overflow.

Hope you can understand that :slfg:

Any feedback or ideas will be appreciated

just trying to make the most of what I have.

Thanks

Mike

[Adrienne]

My thoughts are that you could but risk floods doing it that way as much as you did without canisters. You would still have to have all precautions in place in case of a power failure and if you have had problems previously I am not sure doing it the first way is going to be any better.

[David R]

Canister filters are utterly useless at pushing water up hill. I think you'd be better off redesigning the sump so it is quiet, or running the two tanks separately.

[Adrienne]

If you have not already gotten rid of the sump and purchased the canisters why not post on here the design and what went wrong. There are several awesome people on this forum (David R) is one with a lot of experience in sumps.

I got rid of my sump a few years ago and regret it still.

[Ira]

Yeah, sumps aren't really that complicated to make safe.

[flymike]

Canister filters are utterly useless at pushing water up hill. I think you'd be better off redesigning the sump so it is quiet, or running the two tanks separately.

Yeah I know my second idea with the pump would be much better than trying to use the canister

If you have not already gotten rid of the sump and purchased the canisters why not post on here the design and what went wrong. There are several awesome people on this forum (David R) is one with a lot of experience in sumps.

I got rid of my sump a few years ago and regret it still.

I only chose to try to use the sump because it came with the tank and stand (got it cheep)

The sump is poorly made from a tall glass tank with acrylic baffles

Some pics here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=65300

Its not a large tank 120x50x50 and I don't plan on over stocking, just 2-3 of breading groups and some randoms

I picked up the second tank (75lx45hx38d) cheep ($20) as the previous owners were heading over seas, was planing to rebuild a new sump set up in it. But now Im just going to use it for a small grow out/fry tank.

[livingart]

Im not sure where to fit mechanical filtration in, a filter sock maybe??

or fit something in where the overflow enters?

where is the noise being created?

[Adrienne]

that looks exactly like the sump I used to have

[flymike]

where is the noise being created?

From the sh!t house via aqua 4900 pump I got for $15 :bggrn: no surprise there tough.

I do have a brand new/unused boyu gxb5000 sitting there ready to go, but I will have to throttle the flow back by about 50% to allow for the 25mm overflow pipe work.

Iv'e pretty much decided to ditch the sump set up. Im only newish to the whole aquarium thing, and my other tank with a CF1200 works well and is quiet. The wife has said no big tanks, but if I did a sump will be the way to go (note how I used will and not would!!).

My only concern is the 5.45 (apx 1500lph) filtration cycles per hour through 2 CF1200's, but I think the use of a wave maker may help with this

Im still going to set up the tank I got to re-build the sump with though, and it will go under my big tank.

I think I will pump it up into the main tank with a vacuum breaker hole drilled just above the water level to minimize the back flow, and allow it to flow back through the 25mm overflow.

But of course this will lower my filtration cycles per hour evan more (down to apx 3.95p/h)

Thinking about that, I may have to re think this plan

[flymike]

This is a better pic the current setup,

Water levels abit high.

I relly would need to get a pump rated at 3000lph, the ehiem compact 3000+ is $250. 2x CF1200 is only $278

For what I was going to do with the new sump/tank, which is a bit longer and wider, was to use basically the same design, lengthening the first bay and mount the socks lower in the tank (to minimize the chance of overflow, lesson learnt), flow would travel down through the socks, down under a baffle, up to the drip tray, down through the bio balls, up through the ceramics, over and down past the heater ellement and on to the pump.

In an ideal world, and if I had'nt been a noooobie add just wanted to get it going, I should have drilled for a 50mm outlet in the side and used existing 25mm one as an emergency overflow.

I have brought the first CF1200 for this tank, which Im running along side the sump at the moment, this can be used elsewhere.

OPINION TIME :slfg:

Should I continue with the sump?

Is sump filtration so much better than canisters?

Would it warrant me spending the time and money on rebuilding?

or would it be less hassle to just get a second canister and go with the 2?

The unused 5000lph Boyu pump I got for the job will pump around 3800lph max up into the tank (max 13.8 tank cycles per hour), this may allow me to run a second tank of the one sump/pump in the future. This idea intrigues me a little, I do like designing and building projects

I would sell this one and make a new version from the 75lx45hx38w tank.

My Father in law is a glazier, so finding glass for the build is no biggie

I have a 3d model drawn on sketch up, just need to work out how to save a screen shot on the mac, and ill put it up

All opinions welcome

as Im on the fence now over what I should do

Thanks Guys

[David R]

I'd skip the baffles, suspend filter sock(s) above one end, bags of submerged media like ceramic rings or matrix, heaters then return pump at the other. Just make sure you have a large enough tank to provide adequate depth for the pump while having enough empty space to hold the water when the pump switches off.

It will be every bit as effective as a canister for bio filtration, far better for mechanical, easier to clean, no disturbance to bio media when cleaning, and it lets you hide the heaters etc to keep the display tank clean. Certainly sounds better than a canister to me!

[flymike]

I'd skip the baffles, suspend filter sock(s) above one end, bags of submerged media like ceramic rings or matrix, heaters then return pump at the other. Just make sure you have a large enough tank to provide adequate depth for the pump while having enough empty space to hold the water when the pump switches off.

It will be every bit as effective as a canister for bio filtration, far better for mechanical, easier to clean, no disturbance to bio media when cleaning, and it lets you hide the heaters etc to keep the display tank clean. Certainly sounds better than a canister to me!

So your saying just socks at one end and pump at the other with bagged media in between, no baffles?

[David R]

Yep, works fine for many folk on MFK, keeping everything from monsters to wild discus.

[flymike]

Ok, so Iv put a bit of time/$$$ in over the weekend

Im now running

- No Baffles!!!

- New 7" filter sock and mount suspended in the sump, & a spere sock for weekly swap outs.

- New BOYU GXB5000 pump with a 25mm bypass (to bring the flow through the tank down a bit, and because I currently only have a 25mm overflow outlet in the tank), with a 25mm ball valve so the flow is adjustable, which puts the excess back on the unfiltered side of the sump

- 300w element

- about 6kg of bagged mixed bio noods (glass sintered and ceramic, also old and new)

- and a few bio balls to make up a 6" thick bio filter that the water passes through

The green tape in the center of the tank marks the level when the pump is on and off.

I think eventually, I will replace the 1 large and 1 small bags of bio balls with Noodles

I may even add another layer and lift the water volume.

I also may build a screen for the pump, just in case anything gets loose

What do you guys think?

Have I missed anything??

[David R]

Looks good. Only thing I'd change is to swap the mesh sock for a felt-type one, they're far more effective at catching the fine stuff.

[flymike]

Looks good. Only thing I'd change is to swap the mesh sock for a felt-type one, they're far more effective at catching the fine stuff.

I did look at those, they were 200 micron. The fine mesh ones I have are 100 micron.

Ill see how they go, if I have to go to the 200s I will.

thanks for the input

[David R]

You can order them from www.particlesolutionz.co.nz too. Henward recently tried using the mesh ones inside his felt and found that the particles in the mesh bags break down to under 100 microns and can easily work their way through. The felt ones actually get more effective as they clog up and in reality will usually filter far finer than their micron rating. I found no difference in water quality or quantity of waste captured on my old set up when running 100m socks, 50m, 200m, or 200m inside of 50m...

[flymike]

Hi Guys,

Bit of an update.

biologically the sump is working perfect!

Mechanically, not so well..

The weter flowing through the nylon 100 micron sock was forcing small particles through, these have been building up on the noodles.

The noodles reached there "load holding capacity" and these particles started flowing back through the tank. Not to pretty, unless you like fish in soup!

Version 2.1

Got a 250mm longer tank for $5

Switched to a nylon 200 micron sock,

layer of 50mm 30ppi blue foam

layer of 40mm bio balls

layer of 50mm 45ppi black foam

Then through the noodles and on to the pump

You can see the particles building in the 200micron sock already, only been 12hrs.

I did lightly rinse the bags of noodles in tank water, so im keeping an eye on things

All seams ok for now

[David R]

I think you'll find that 200micron is actually finer than 45ppi foam, but if larger particles are being forced thru the foam should trap them. You should try a polypropylene needlefelt sock, will catch all the fine stuff with basically no bypass (unless it overflows).