newaqua Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Hello all. I have recently moved, and the water coming from the tap has higher levels of Nitrate than what I used to get in my tank under normal conditions at my old house! So I have been looking at Nitrate Reactors/Filters. Effectively turning the Nitrate in the water into gas, rather than having to do heaps of water changes. From what I can understand its just a continuation of the nitrogen cycle. They work through creating an anaerobic area within the tank (or system) for the bacteria to survive. Alot of info on the net suggests that you need to 'feed' these to keep the bacteria alive. However, would this type of bacterial filtration not work like the rest of the biological filtration 'chain'? By this I mean, should they not sit at a sustainable level, obviously once it is attained, inside the tank. For example, the bacteria that turn Ammonia into Nitrite, these bacteria keep the Ammonia level at zero (or extremely close to), but still survive, as they reach an optimum 'number'. Would this not occur with the bacteria that turn the Nitrate into gas? From what I can understand reading online alot of people suggest to 'feed' them: http://www.theaquariumsolution.com/manu ... te-reactor However, what is the point in feeding them to keep them alive? If this unit is attached full-time, feeding them would only allow them to exist in numbers that are above what is needed. Am I correct in thinking this? I have added the link above, however I will be building one myself (not buying) I was just looking for information on it. Does anyone have any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 You need to feed them carbon eg. alcohol. You don't get carbon from nitrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaqua Posted June 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 You need to feed them carbon eg. alcohol. You don't get carbon from nitrate. My understanding was the bacteria that turn the nitrate into gas only need an anaerobic area. For example, the bubbles that you see appear against the glass, underneath a DSB - the small bubbles being the Nitrate that the bacteria has created. These bacteria are not being fed any carbon that is not already in the water, so what is the need to feed the same bacteria inside the Nitrate Reactor/Filter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 What are the nitrate readings from the tap? (out of curiosity) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 These bacteria are not being fed any carbon that is not already in the water, so what is the need to feed the same bacteria inside the Nitrate Reactor/Filter? You won't have dissolved organic compounds ( a carbon source ) to act as the electron donor in tap water as a DSB has from the tank water. What about using Purigen instead to remove the nitrates? The denitrators can be quite finicky to run properly from what I read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueether Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Were you planning to run this on a system or only for incoming water from the tap? I read it as on the system. I have a DSB in my 4ft coldwater native tank, sometimes it seems to remove nitrates well, other times it seems to stop dead and the nitrate levels start to climb again. at the moment I'm not testing for nitrates but are just doing weekly or so W/Cs. A while a go I had an issue with an ammonia spike and after the biofilter was working again the nitrate peeked at 20 - 30ppm and then over the next week dropped back to <5ppm so it can work well. There are a lot of arguments against a DSB on the net ie sulphates but I haven't had a problem with mine. I know that a DSB is slightly different than a purpose built reactor but the processes will be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaqua Posted June 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 You won't have dissolved organic compounds ( a carbon source ) to act as the electron donor in tap water as a DSB has from the tank water. What about using Purigen instead to remove the nitrates? The denitrators can be quite finicky to run properly from what I read. Ahh, now I understand. I was meaning running it on the tank, 24/7, (rather than just for new water) whether I do a water change or not to keep the nitrates down in general (on top of doing water changes). However, if I am getting nitrates in my tap water, are these not organic compounds of some kind? As far as I am aware, thats what Nitrates are, an organic compound (and therefore carbon based)??? If not, can you explain a little as I am confused if thats not the case! :dunno: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaqua Posted June 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 What are the nitrate readings from the tap? (out of curiosity) Anywhere from 10-30, varies a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaqua Posted June 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 I know that a DSB is slightly different than a purpose built reactor but the processes will be the same. That was my understanding as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 However, if I am getting nitrates in my tap water, are these not organic compounds of some kind? As far as I am aware, thats what Nitrates are, an organic compound (and therefore carbon based)??? If not, can you explain a little as I am confused if thats not the case! :dunno: I would have thought the main source of nitrates would be from contamination from fertilizers ie. inorganic nitrates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 I would be surprised if the nitrates in the tap water in Christchurch city water supply were much over 10 mg/litre. If you are growing plants they would do better with levels much higher than that. Water changes remove all compounds in the water, not just nitrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaqua Posted June 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 I would be surprised if the nitrates in the tap water in Christchurch city water supply were much over 10 mg/litre. If you are growing plants they would do better with levels much higher than that. Water changes remove all compounds in the water, not just nitrate. Not alot of plants, not really too worried about them. However, I think the nitrates are higher due to all the work going on at the moment with fixing the systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 It shouldn't make any difference to nitrates. Why do you want to reduce nitrates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaqua Posted June 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 It shouldn't make any difference to nitrates. Why do you want to reduce nitrates? No specific reason aside from better water quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 1st: NITRate, NITRite... NITROGEN based compounds. 2nd: Why re-invent the wheel? 3rd: DSB is useful in saltwater tanks for a number of reasons. Freshwater? I'm not familiar with any proven results/effects that a DSB will provide... A Biological Nitrate Reactor = Canister filter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 A Biological Nitrate Reactor = Canister filter... The nitrate reactors advertised I've seen run anaerobically, and at much lower flow rates than a standard cannister filter to get that result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirt Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 I've always thought DSB leads to bacteria turning nitrates back into ammonia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 The nitrate reactors advertised I've seen run anaerobically, and at much lower flow rates than a standard cannister filter to get that result. I can't say I've seen or researched much about them, just rather keep to what I know works as a proven system, which is fairly simple to comprehend for a beginner, or those that don't understand Nitrogen Chemistry... EDIT: KK, bit of research done, someone care to explain how an Anaerobic environ can be created, while still feeding through tank water (which will be oxygenated)? seems to be a oxymoron to me... EDIT EDIT: KK I understand the basics now... So it stands beside a biological reactor that does the NH3/4+ to NO3/NO2, then removes the NO2... Water changes seem cheaper and easier... the read-through on the setup of them seems pretty hit/miss, and unstable... W/C has added benifit of removing everything and anything that is in the water... not just NO2... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueether Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 oxygen will be depleted by normal nitrifying activity after the first few cm of media wont it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 There may be some conversion of nitrates back to ammonia in an anaerobic or hypoxic environment (dissimilatory ammonia production ) such as in sludge at the bottom of the tank NO3- => NO2- => N2O => NH4+ but presumably there are enough nitrifying bugs to make this not important. I think you'll find that in a DSB, the anaerobic processes mainly favour denitrification where nitrates are converted to N2 gas. Which is why these reactors are usually quite tall so that the deeper the water goes, the more oxygen is removed by the upper levels containing aerobic bugs to create the anaerobic environment in the deeper levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 These nitrate reactors are mainly sold for marine tank use where water changes are a bit more work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 These nitrate reactors are mainly sold for marine tank use where water changes are a bit more work. Not when you live <5k from NSW :slfg: I've never found anything that is better than NSW + couple nutrient top-ups... What $$$ are people parting with for this? :dunno: I dunno, interesting concept, but I don't think it a game changer... not unless you've got the Pingers burning a hole in your pocket...in which case, pay someone to do your W/C's :rotf: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 I don't have a marine tank ( yet ), and my office is on the wharf. But I see those fine layers of oil on the water from the fishing trawlers ... and that kinda puts me off using that NSW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newaqua Posted June 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 I have gone over the costs of doing it myself, I think all up it will be under $50. Im going to try it to see if it works, will post any pictures on here as I go (might be a few weeks away). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 Not when you live <5k from relatively clean (after Rena) NSW :slfg: Fixd. :rotf: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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