Horizons Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Hello. A mature female of mine recently started showing the common buoyancy associated with swim bladder. All my other fish are fine. Conditions are fine. I think its because when my Fronts feed, they seem to go mental - HUGE gulps etc etc. Makes me think the fish sucked in too much air. What do I do now? Peas only for a few days? Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snookie Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 most fish have a swim bladder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horizons Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 most fish have a swim bladder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snookie Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 You are the expert Oscar keeper thought you new everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horizons Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 your the expert oscar keeper thought you new everything 1. You're* 2. Yawn. If you don't want to help, then sod off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snookie Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 :digH: :digH: :digH: :digH: :digH: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I think you would make more sense if you inserted problem after swim bladder ie "Frontosa with swim bladder problem".. Anyway I can't help much because I have never seen or heard of this in NZ, it is more common in the wild caught frontosa and as the frontosa we have are like F1000 our fish seem to have adapted to eating off the surface etc.. However it is called float and you can find tons of information by googling "frontosa with float" I could go and read it all and transcribe it here but I am sure you will find an answer http://www.google.co.nz/#hl=en&safe=off&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=frontosa+with+float&oq=frontosa+with+float&aq=f&aqi=g-j1&aql=&gs_nf=1&gs_l=hp.3..0i18.1892.4171.0.4351.19.10.0.4.4.0.313.1123.2-3j1.5.0.txAA01_tfak&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=afd736ab52182da5. Make sure you post back and let us know how you get on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horizons Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I think you would make more sense if you inserted problem after swim bladder ie "Frontosa with swim bladder problem".. Anyway I can't help much because I have never seen or heard of this in NZ, it is more common in the wild caught frontosa and as the frontosa we have are like F1000 our fish seem to have adapted to eating off the surface etc.. However it is called float and you can find tons of information by googling "frontosa with float" I could go and read it all and transcribe it here but I am sure you will find an answer http://www.google.co.nz/#hl=en&safe=off&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=frontosa+with+float&oq=frontosa+with+float&aq=f&aqi=g-j1&aql=&gs_nf=1&gs_l=hp.3..0i18.1892.4171.0.4351.19.10.0.4.4.0.313.1123.2-3j1.5.0.txAA01_tfak&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=afd736ab52182da5. Make sure you post back and let us know how you get on. Thank you for that. I got 2 of them a couple of weeks ago. The float isn't terrible, but it is definitely noticeable. Its so frustrating. That Youtube video in your link (needle in the fish) - I'm guessing it is a bad idea to do that? Or is it ok as a last resort? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matto Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 A needle is commonly used to release fish which are pulled up from depths which causes the swimbladder to over inflate due to the decreasing pressure as they come up,if it doesn't sort itself out and the fish isn't looking good I would give it a go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horizons Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 A needle is commonly used to release fish which are pulled up from depths which causes the swimbladder to over inflate due to the decreasing pressure as they come up,if it doesn't sort itself out and the fish isn't looking good I would give it a go Ok, will report back here in the morning. Also, one last thing. Shall I switch to sinking pellets? I've been using floating and they're rushing up, mouth wide open. I'm only going to feed Peas for a couple of days, but after that I should go sinking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcon021 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Yea sinking will be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Swim bladder is not connected to mouth/feeding... :facepalm: certain species use their swim bladder as a primitive "lung" (lungfish, mudskipper, betta, some gourami sp.) pH issues can cause the biological process that regulates the air in the swim bladder (similar to the hemoglobin/ oxygen relationship in your muscles). Stress and poor nutrition can also be factors. Beware that using the pin on the swim bladder can lead to infection. If you don't want to help, then sod off. Pah, You can't keep fish the way you're SUPPOSED to, then tell us to sod off while asking for help. What a freaking Goose... I DONT want to help you. I want to help the poor fish that you obviously struggle with keeping... Funny how things turn around, huh? Who's the "Idiot" now... :digH: You are the expert Oscar keeper thought you new everything :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Please boys and girls could we try a little harder to obey the rules and try hard to not get personal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Read somewhere that high nitrate levels can affect the vascular control of the swim bladder. Nitrates are used as vasodilators in medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 gas in the gastrointestinal tract? from an article i downloaded awhile back sorry no reference but i think it was from a goldfish site Vascular mechanisms: There are three vascular areas for gas exchange between the swim bladder and the bloodstream. The rete mirabile, the gas gland and a resorptive area in the tissue of the pneumatic duct. Strange says the rete mirabile and the gas gland work together to increase pressure in the swim bladder. The rete mirabile maintains a pressure differential between the blood and gas bladder and keeps it from losing gasses. The gas gland cells release carbon dioxide and lactic acid causing hemoglobin to release oxygen which results in an increase in partial pressure allowing oxygen and nitrogen gasses to flow into the swim bladder. The pneumatic duct is a tube that runs between the esophagus and the swim bladder. Goldfish may gulp and burp air to alter the pressure in the swim bladder. It is unclear to what degree they actually use burping and gulping to decrease or increase the pressure in the swim bladder. Doc Johnson says it's used only for expelling air. Based on this, anything that adversely affects the small capillaries of the rete mirabile, the gas gland, the resorptive area or the pneumatic duct could affect the goldfish's ability to increase or decrease the inflation of the swim bladder. Inflammation caused by bacteria or viruses is one likely cause. High nitrAte levels could also affect these blood vessels because nitrAte (converted to nitrIte in the blood stream) may cause vasodilatation. Identifying and treating/removing the cause of the inflammation are essential to preventing permanent damage. However inability to control buoyancy (especially being stuck on the bottom), may simply be caused by compression of the swim bladder as the goldfish grows because the rounded body shape does not allow enough room for the swim bladder to grow to the size needed to maintain buoyancy. If the swim bladder is malformed or compressed by the body, there is not much that can be done to inflate it. The only successful treatment so far was developed by Dr. Greg Lewbart and involved inserting a tag into the muscle by the dorsal fin and attaching a cork to it to keep the fish upright. Tumors and other internal conditions such as cysts can also affect buoyancy. You can read about a large renal cyst in an oranda here. In this case, the cyst was compressing the swim bladder and keeping it from being able to inflate to control buoyancy. Another thing that may cause buoyancy issues is gas in the GI tract. I think there are two ways that goldfish can get gas in their GI tract: from swallowing air - if they gulp air and their esophageal sphincter (the muscle between the esophagus and the stomach) isn't strong enough to keep the air from getting into their digestive tract. from gas producing grains found in many commercial goldfish foods. Gas is formed by bacteria in the colon from fermenting certain starch or sugars. Several foods that may contribute to gas are in fish foods (wheat, soy, and legume seeds). Digestion of these starches by animals requires an enzyme produced by bacteria present in the GI tract. These bacteria produce hydrogen, methane and carbon dioxide gases (1, 2, 3). This may occur after the use of antibiotics because antibiotics disrupt the normal flora of the GI tract, thus opening up a niche for the gas producing bacteria to over-colonize. Treatment If a goldfish is flipping, the first thing to do is check your water parameters. Some people think high nitrate can cause flipping. As mentioned above, it is possible that high nitrAtes affect the vascular mechanisms for controlling the amount of air in the swim bladder. If your nitrAte is running above 40ppm, do partial water changes to lower it. Fast growing plants may also help as would vacuuming your gravel thoroughly (the bacteria that eat debris in the tank also produce ammonia which gets converted to more nitrAte). If you can't keep nitrAte at tolerable levels, consider setting up a larger tank because the extra water will help dilute nitrAtes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Yeah, that was the article I read too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Interesting article. If the nitrate gets turned to nitrite in the blood, why does it not cause methaemoglobinemia as in humans? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? Is that where blue goldfish come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 http://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/1998/spring/nitrate.shtml blue goldfish :sml1: apparently salt helps to decrease the chances of getting blue goldfish with brown blood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketman Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Read somewhere that high nitrate levels can affect the vascular control of the swim bladder. Indeed! :thup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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