ally07 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Hi all I recently purchased a baby bearded dragon (eastern) and he is doing well so far. When I bought the calcium powder, the guy at the store told me that calcium with D3 was better for young beardies. After talking to Henward, I found out that too much D3 is bad for them. I'm using a Repti-Glo 10.0 lamp and it's on for 14 hours/ day. I don't want to overdose him on D3 but at the same time I don't want him to have calcium deficiency. After some more research, I also read that beardies don't get very much D3 from dietary supplements, more from UVA/ UVB lamps, but I'm not sure if this is true.. Should I buy a new pot of calcium without D3 and count this one as a waste? Or can I just use calcium with D3 as a daily supplement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Dunno about reptile skin but I would think it's similar to mammalian skin and other vertebrates. You can not simply get too much vitamin D from the sun as a steady state condition is reached where vitamin D synthesis is matched by destruction. The only way you can cause toxicity is to feed excessive supplements containing vitamin D. Of course your reptile will need a space to crawl into away from the UVB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 different types of skin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ally07 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Dunno about reptile skin but I would think it's similar to mammalian skin and other vertebrates. You can not simply get too much vitamin D from the sun as a steady state condition is reached where vitamin D synthesis is matched by destruction. The only way you can cause toxicity is to feed excessive supplements containing vitamin D. Of course your reptile will need a space to crawl into away from the UVB. Ummm... So, he can't get too much vitamin D from the lamp but he can overdose from dietary supplements?? He has a couple of caves which he can use to get shade from the UVB, but he voluntarily spends most of his day basking in the UVB. Sorry, but I'm not :smln: enough to ascertain a yes/ no answer from your reply lol.. :oops: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 If your reptile is getting maximum D3 from your tubes, then there is no need for additional supplementation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ally07 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 If your reptile is getting maximum D3 from your tubes, then there is no need for additional supplementation. Well, he's getting approximately 14 hours of UVB everyday, so I think that's enough. But what would there be negative effects if he gets additional D3 supplements about 5x a week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insect Direct Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 can overdose on D3. think you will find can cause organ failure / damage. probably more easy to od on the powder than the bulbs. the following website has a simple explanation and pretty much bang on imo. http://www.reptilecare.com/supplements.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonz1833 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 what your best to do is have the coastal beardie living outside and use the non d3 vitamin powder and also make sure enclosure is not setup like an inland bearded dragon please (no offence if you do know the difference) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insect Direct Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 what's the diff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 :rotf: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repto Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 different types of skin your`s looks very reptilian though?there is an exeption to every rule? :rotf: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 your`s looks very reptilian though?there is an exeption to every rule? :rotf: it is all the keratin but no hair :sage: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repto Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 how do you cope with the excess UV rays you must be getting with that solar panel up there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 There was a vet specialising in reptiles who posted here recently, so maybe she can provide the definitive answer. However, on first principles I'd be worried about relying on outside UVB for adequate D3 synthesis all year round. It would be okay where this reptile evolved, but being further south, the levels of UVB are lower, and I would estimate that perhaps 4 months of the year we lack enough energetic UVB photons to be able to synthesize D3 at my latitude. It is likely to be a shorter period in Auckland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 that would depend on the colour of your skin wouldn't it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I coat the live food for both beardies and leps with calcium containing D3 because I have seen a number of lizards suffering from metabolic bone disorder but have not seen any suffering from D3 poisoning (not to say it is not out there). I am more careful about adding general vitamins to salid for beardies and the types of salad they get. The fat soluble vitamins including D3 can be toxic because they are not as readily excreted but small amounts added to food should be beneficial. I raised a number of leps from babies to breeders without D3 or added to food, just a container for them take calcium when they wanted it and they were all OK. Since then I have had the odd one with calcium problems which may have been a genetic predisposition to non absorption of calcium, but they have been alright since I added calcium with D3 to their food. There are a number of foods that can probably cause more problems such as carrot with Vit E. or phosphates and oxalates that hinder the absorption of calcium. I think there are probably more problems from not using it than from using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ally07 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I coat the live food for both beardies and leps with calcium containing D3 because I have seen a number of lizards suffering from metabolic bone disorder but have not seen any suffering from D3 poisoning (not to say it is not out there). I am more careful about adding general vitamins to salid for beardies and the types of salad they get. The fat soluble vitamins including D3 can be toxic because they are not as readily excreted but small amounts added to food should be beneficial. I raised a number of leps from babies to breeders without D3 or added to food, just a container for them take calcium when they wanted it and they were all OK. Since then I have had the odd one with calcium problems which may have been a genetic predisposition to non absorption of calcium, but they have been alright since I added calcium with D3 to their food. There are a number of foods that can probably cause more problems such as carrot with Vit E. or phosphates and oxalates that hinder the absorption of calcium. I think there are probably more problems from not using it than from using it. Cool, that's good to know. How often did you coat the food with D3? I know that young beardies need calcium powder about 5x/ week, but I'm not sure if that much calcium with D3 will be tempting fate lol. Also, if I vary his diet with fresh vegetables and calcium powder, is it alright for me to use mealworms as a staple live food? I've heard good/ bad points about mealworms but they are the easiest for me to breed/ gutload/ feed.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Sure, higher levels of melanin in human skin further reduce the synthesis of D3 in the low UVB months of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I have reared a number of clutches of beardies without any problems with MBD or missing bits of toes or tails. I spray them every day and let them sit in a bit of water for 10-15 minutes then fed them small mealworms with calcium and D3. All this in a large plastic container. Then released them and fed neonate locusts coated with calcium and D3. I leave a container of mealworms in with the adults all the time, fresh salid every day with liquid vitamins every second, locusts and waxmoth larvae pretty regularly. They will go for them in preference to mealies. All live food coated with calcium and D3. Young and breeding females need a lot of calcium and they cannot utilise it without D3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Mealworms are pretty fat and should not be used as a staple in my view but can be part of a mixed diet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ally07 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Yeah, I do find that he goes for locusts much quicker than he does mealies. Unfortunately, I don't have the space to set up a locust breeding colony, so he has to make do with mealies I guess. I've read that mealies are quite high in phosphate, but I'm hoping that bumping up his calcium intake will offset this. Hearing that you've raised beardies on calcium with D3 everyday is quite reassuring; was pretty worried about him getting a D3 overdose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 As I said earlier, I leave a container of live mealworms (of apropriate size) in with the beardies and adult leps. I add calcium and D3 to that container all the time. Mealies are high in Phosphorus as is the bran you feed them on so I add calcium to help get the ratios a bit better. I feed almost only dandelion leaves,nosturtian leaves and the odd flowers of each with chopped up zuchini and spray that every second day with liquid vitamins. The zuchini has very little food value but it is a way of getting moisture into the thick sods. Leps will drink water but beardies will dehydrate to death beside a bowl of water. When young or if the are looking a bit dehydrated or they are gravid I give them a bath in warm water. There is good info on the beautiful dragons site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insect Direct Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 do you use uvb bulbs in conjunction Alan, or just supplements? a good bulb should cancel out the need for powdered D3 supplement i would have thought? low rating bulb + supplements ok ... supplements without bulb at all ? in theory sounds ok but how much is too much / little and is it as good as from a light source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I have a two storey 1600 x 600 600 that I built and each has a four foot UV tube on 14 hours a day. This is the second year with leps in the top and beardies in the bottom. Also have other leps in cages without UV (adults and babies) and they all look OK. Not a lot of sun around when the leps are active but the beardies would bask all day if they got the chance. We have a cage outside to put them in on a good day but the first thing they do is go and hide--bloody strains. I think the best thing with beardies is a mixed diet of live food and be selective with the salids to try and stay away from the harmful stuff like phosphates, oxalates and goitrogens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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