Ismart120 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Ok, eqc money has almost arrived so I'll finally be able to move my fish out of their temp housing (yes, most of them are still alive even) The real question is, what do I get? I haven't been too fussed on how the juwel stand fared last time (mdf crushed itself) so not really wanting to go down that isle again, I do like the tanks but thought if I'm going to get/build a custom stand, I may as well get everything else custom too. So, I'm aiming for about 125-160 litres, smaller than three foot (just to be a pain), planted, with hoplos, tetras and dwarf loaches/ cichlids - any tank dimensions people can suggest? Also, a place to get this made/ what bracing do I get/ and can I have black silicone please. For the stand, wooden or steel? Will need to move it around a bit later on/ not wanting to spend the earth on it (and will clad it with wood anyway) Again, dimensions? Will have either an ehiem 2213 and/or 2215 running, need to fit this in the stand. Lighting? Mainly crypts and anubias really but may want to go for some red plants too. what build of hood? Note that cats are be present so topless doesn't work. Or do I just go with the juwel rio 125 and hope for the best in the stand? Thanks for any ideas That is all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 My first thought was that watching my loaches they like to zip around horizontally more than up/down (though they will swim about in the current), maybe longer rather than deep would be good for them. Also then you'd get a bigger base footprint for your other bottom dwellers to have more room :dunno: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony law Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 what a bout 3foot cube whould be cool.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ismart120 Posted October 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Size will become an issue, but it might be just worth going up to three foot though? And given the frequency of quakes and seeing my old four foot lodged in the wall, I'm not that keen on lots of height. lol What about 900mm long, 450 high and 400 deep? that gives about 160 litres max water, maybe about 145 in real terms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoon Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 attach the tank to the stand im using alu corner brackets i was told to use a large sheet of double sided tape . then make the footprint of the stand bigger, im going to attach a large heavy ply board covered in carpet, you could also bolt the stand to the floor i wouldnt bolt it to the wall as the walls and floors move differently and may warp the stand with all that weight pressing down on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ismart120 Posted October 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Yeah, I was going to build a lip onto the stand to stop it moving around, is the carpet just for weight? Going to put a non slip mat under the tank to stop as much sliding as possible too. Would love to bolt it down but hopefully moving sometime next year hence the need for it to be semi movable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#!CrunchBang Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 You can also lower the centre of gravity by having a shorter stand, mines only 47cm off the ground Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ismart120 Posted October 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Good point, thanks. Might see if I can make it about 600, rather than the 800 I was tying with. Anyone know how much 4x2s are per metre or where to get cheap 2x2s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 There's 2 approaches to making things earthquake proof. 1. Let the stand flex so the ground moves but the tank stays relatively still. 2. Make it rigid as and bolt it down so everything moves with the ground. The problem with 1 is if the stand reaches the limit of its elasticity if will fatigue and break. The problem with 2 is everything including the tank has to be designed much stronger. I personally prefer 2 as you can work with absolute numbers and there's no guesswork in the design. It also means it doesn't matter what form the quake takes (single-direction/multi-direction) it will still survive. Of course, you still have to design to a given maximum - the number of G's the unit can handle... I Hawkes Bay I designed my stand for 1G. Given the tank and stand weighed about 2500kg it meant the point where the stand touched the floor had to cope with as much as 25kN in a big earthquake. On top of that you have to allow for vertical motion and guess at how much wave flexing will be in the floor. In the end I went for a stand that could peak at 50kN across 2 diagonal points. This said, I was never happy the tank would hold together even after reinforcing it. If you want your tank to survive big earthquakes you'll need to allow plenty of safety factor into the glass design and use better than the normal but-joint silicone construction method. A safety factor of 3.8 on the glass should do it. Provided no twisting force is applied to the base of the tank glass, double-butted silicone joints should hold together in most big earthquakes. If the stand is not rigid enough, twisting forces will also appear in the silicone joints creating unknown stresses that are difficult to calculate. They also seriously reduce the strength of the butt-joint and create extra stress in the glass. I now prefer steel frame tanks with the glass sitting inside the frame with the silicone joint under compression. My last tank design had a safety factor of 22 - yes, a little overboard but at least it would still be standing after the house fell down around it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ismart120 Posted October 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Awesome, thank you for the info, just what I was looking for. A couple of questions, how did you work out the loading capacity of the stand? And how did you work out the strength over two diagonal points? I've got two options for a tank, the second being more expensive and therefore less appealing overall but if its worth it I'll look into it: 800x45x40 tank made in 6mm glass, euro bracing style or made in 10mm glass with a back to front brace over the middle, both of which will have bracing underneath, any thoughts, opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I haven't really been following this but I'd build the same tank in 6mm minimum in Auckland so if you're going for strength then I'd say 10mm is your best bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ismart120 Posted October 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Ok, sweet, good to know. Can you get 8mm glass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I once worked out how to calculate glass thickness and this took weeks to research and understand. So, I certainly wasn't going to try to figure out the stand calculations. I got a structural engineer to do it. It cost nearly $1k but was worth it to be sure. Too many people skimp where it's important spending only a few hundred dollars on the tank and stand and put thousands of dollars of fish in the tank. Then they get all teary-eyed when the tank or stand breaks and they lose all the fish... Think of $$$ spent in the right place as better than insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoon Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 you can get 8mm glass but youre probably better off going for 10mm as the off cuts are bigger and may make it cheaper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 The tank you were looking at of 900 x 450 x 400 has the following safety factors; 6mm - 2.37 (too low) 8mm - 4.21 (good) 10mm - 6.58 (excellent) It's clear 10mm is very thick for this sized tank and gives much higher than the 3.8 minimum recommended safety factor. If 8mm is available and cheaper than 10mm I'd go for that but as Spoon has said - 10mm might be cheaper... Many tanks this size are made from 6mm glass and last a long time. Chances are under normal situations the tank would never cause a problem. In unusual situations like earthquakes it may let go. Another advantage of 10mm glass is nearly twice the width of the silicone join which will give more than 2x the strength of a 6mm join. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoon Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Yeah, I was going to build a lip onto the stand to stop it moving around, is the carpet just for weight? Going to put a non slip mat under the tank to stop as much sliding as possible too. Would love to bolt it down but hopefully moving sometime next year hence the need for it to be semi movable. the carpet was to make it look good and protect the real carpet from any spills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ismart120 Posted October 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Ok, sure. Unfortunately being a student getting a structural engineer to have a look but I'll see if some of friends doing engineering at uni would have a look. As for the tank size, I'm flicking between 800 and 900 long still, haven't really seen any arguments either way as to which one works best yet. I'll try to go for 10mm glass at any rate though, even if just for putting that little bit extra down at the start for peace of mind later on. I've been looking through the glass thickness calculators online, not many of them seem to state whether they take into account bracing on the tank and what sort? Do you think a simple front to back brace on the ends and in the middle would work for 10mm or do I need to go the full euro style? At the very least, thank you for your help Warren and Spoon, been awesome to hear from people who have looked at this sort of thing before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I suggest going 900 over 800 as most 3 foot lights will be too long for 800 and 2 foot won't be long enough. 900 is just right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 My glass thickness calculator on this website assumes good perimeter bracing around the entire top (all 4 sides supported) - commonly referred to as euro bracing. This also has the added advantage of reducing twisting of the top of the tank during earthquakes. With 10mm glass you won't need bracing at the top of the tank for it to be strong enough under normal conditions. It will only be required for unusual conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ismart120 Posted October 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Ok, 900mm long in 10mm glass with bracing. Sounds good. Thats the tank done mostly then, just need a quote for it and I'll be underway. With the stand made out of either 2xx2 or 2x4 we should be getting somewhere. Thank you for all your help hey. I'll post some photos when I get it going and hopefully through the build too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ismart120 Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Oh, power glo lights the way to go or are they over kill for planting mainly crypts, java ferns and anubias? Would also like to get some short carpeting plants, like zealandia micro sword if they'd work. Happy to add ferts and plan on having either aqua basic under sand or flouritefor substrate too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 powerglo will grow anything really really well. Some don't like the pink colour of them so maybe have another daylight tube at about 6500k or even 10000k to white it up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ismart120 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Thanks, that helps, I think a 150w jager heater will round off the set. Just waiting for the cheque and exams to be over now.... Anyone want a four foot juwel tank + stand? Slight earthquake and water damage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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