the-obstacle Posted July 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 So the angels are on the mend but one of my heckelli is now hanging out near the top of the tank panting. I did a 50% water change yesterday before adding ferts (same process every week) and I've just done a full water test which is showing 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 5ppm Nitrate. There's clearly something going on in this tank. I don't want to risk losing the whole tank and seeing as it's now spread out of the angel family I'm inclined to think it's either gill flukes or worms. What should I do next? I'm considering moving the one affected heckelli to the hospital tank with the angels but I fear this is just treating 1 symptom of a wide spread problem. I am officially scared now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted July 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 So I did some more tests on the hospital tank and the big tank. It seems that while the hospital tank is half way through cycling, the big tank has both ammonia and nitrate readings :facepalm: What the hell? So I've clearly crashed the big tank and I suspect the beginnings of this process is what made the angels sick. So it'll be daily water changes (about 20%) for the big tank until the ammonia goes away and I'll be keeping an eye out for nitrite spiking too. The angels in the hospital tank were doing really well but I notice today that they're back to clamping on day 3 of the second formalin treatment. It's the longest the tank has been without a water change so I'm banking on there being high nitrite levels again. Tomorrow I intend to go on the hunt for bio media to fill the sump and finally get that going. I hope that will spread the load off the 2 canisters and seeing as the tank is going through a mini cycle I know what's coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 You can try adding some cycle to see if that helps. The results (or lack of?) might be worth noting down. Aside from that I'd recommend some Indian fern floating in the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Gutted man sorry to hear this! I hope you get on top of it soon.. The angels don't have red worms (look like tiny threads) coming out their buns do they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted July 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Gutted man sorry to hear this! I hope you get on top of it soon.. The angels don't have red worms (look like tiny threads) coming out their buns do they? Can't see any worms but I'm suspecting it's either worms or parasites. Would either cause the heckelli to be flaring his gills and breathing hard? I suspect ammonia burn with him but can't be sure. It'd be nice if there was a quick fix for him - he's not eating at all while the angels are racing around him to get some flake. I'm thinking a worm dose is the next thing to try. The angels are trying to rub themselves on anything they can (not flashing like I've seen with white spot but a slower version) so clearly I haven't totally killed it off. If formalin hasn't killed the parasites I figure prazi or whatever is available as a worm treatment will kill whatever's left. You can try adding some cycle to see if that helps. The results (or lack of?) might be worth noting down. Aside from that I'd recommend some Indian fern floating in the tank. I've tried cycle before and it didn't help / speed anything up. Would indian fern absorb the ammonia/nitrite as it's going through or would it just suck whatever nitrates are being produced? I've got a ton of plants that are growing like crazy at the moment because I cut them all back to nearly substrate level yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 There are different bacteria doing different jobs in cycling. One lot converts NH3 to nitrite and another converts that to nitrate. The numbers of each depend on what is available so the ones converting ammonia will multiply first then the others will increase as the nitrite becomes available. I have never used them but all I can suggest is to use one of the products that supplies or encourages the bacterial development. The tank needs to cycle properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted July 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 There are different bacteria doing different jobs in cycling. One lot converts NH3 to nitrite and another converts that to nitrate. The numbers of each depend on what is available so the ones converting ammonia will multiply first then the others will increase as the nitrite becomes available. I have never used them but all I can suggest is to use one of the products that supplies or encourages the bacterial development. The tank needs to cycle properly. Yep, it cycled properly over 4 months ago. I've clearly done something to kill off the bacteria (cold water change? over feeding perhaps) so will nurse it through the process again. I'm just scared because of the bio load in there at the moment. I'll nurse it through though. Of course that's the only visible problem in the big tank, the hospital tank has fish in it that are suffering from something else that is being exacerbated by the fact that the meds have caused it to need to cycle again too. 2 freshwater and a salt water tank cycling at the same time. Awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BURN Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 There are different bacteria doing different jobs in cycling. One lot converts NH3 to nitrite and another converts that to nitrate. The numbers of each depend on what is available so the ones converting ammonia will multiply first then the others will increase as the nitrite becomes available. I have never used them but all I can suggest is to use one of the products that supplies or encourages the bacterial development. The tank needs to cycle properly. I personally would never use a bottled bio again. What a wast of good money. All tanks with bottle bio killed my fish and caused nothing but continuous water problems and bad fish health. Why ? I got a bad batch may be. Well I have had a lot of bad batches then as have used many times over many years and had the same out come. I JANOLA out my tanks and start again with dirty good bio from a pond or bucket water from out side. Old bucket water from out side I have not done a full water change on tanks in 3 years. Just top ups. The snails breed well and the fish even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted July 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Today's update - heckelli died in the hospital tank when I dosed with prazi. The rest of the angels are ok for now. will know more tomorrow. fingers crossed this is the cure... the angels have lost a lot of weight in the last few days and there are no signs of anything else. I suspect the heckelli had worms in it's gills which was causing the hard breathing and constant flaring of the gills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 More likely gill damage through too much NH3 or nitrite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted July 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 More likely gill damage through too much NH3 or nitrite. I've had the water tested at HFF and there's barely any ammonia and no nitrite in either tanks. It seems my kit is reading false positives so I've replaced it. The readings I was getting were barely enough to damage even the weakest of fish (only just on the scale) and given that only 1 of the heckelli got sick, and very obviously sick, I'm banking on it being something a bit stronger than NH3/NH4. Of course, I'll never know now :roll: A couple of angels have dropped off overnight due to the prazi treatment. The rest are hanging in there. The main tank looks fine and all fish seem well and active. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishplants Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 I've had the water tested at HFF and there's barely any ammonia and no nitrite in either tanks. It seems my kit is reading false positives so I've replaced it. The readings I was getting were barely enough to damage even the weakest of fish (only just on the scale) and given that only 1 of the heckelli got sick, and very obviously sick, I'm banking on it being something a bit stronger than NH3/NH4. Of course, I'll never know now :roll: A couple of angels have dropped off overnight due to the prazi treatment. The rest are hanging in there. The main tank looks fine and all fish seem well and active. What is your dose of Prazi? How are you delivering the medicine? Unless it is a very, very high dose, it shouldn't be killing your angels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-obstacle Posted July 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 What is your dose of Prazi? How are you delivering the medicine? Unless it is a very, very high dose, it shouldn't be killing your angels. I used 5ml per 80L as directed. I think it was more that the ones that were going to die did as soon as the water changes stopped. Next time I know what to look for and will be able to treat a lot faster. Final update - 9 out of 13 survived. All but 2 are in a new tank with appropriate water conditions for angels (warmer than the community they were in). The last 2 had some fin damage that is being treated with melafix and salt and has pretty much totally healed so they will be going in the angel tank tomorrow after water changes. Thanks to everybody who offered help on this one. I've learnt a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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