Li@m Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Certain people can be singled minded, as soon as they can find a way to justify something which is clearly wrong they no longer think its wrong to start with. Sounds just like my best mate, he brought a cmmon plec at around 10cm And put it in his 60L. I told him it will out grow the tank and he was determined to make me belive that it would not grow that big :facepalm: . Thankfully the fish died the next week.. anyway hes just gone and brought a starlight plec.. :facepalm: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZ_Loach Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 show him a picture of a full grown pleco, they get HUGE :sage: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirt Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 +1 on the over stocked bit! It's like seeing all those turtle on tm that hardly have enough room to swim! Sorry I'm more of a turtle fan than fish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R32GOTMLK Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 ive herd of JDM tanks but not JBL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critter_crazy Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 If someone in NZ had an overstocked tank like that I'd definately have something to say about it :evil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 If someone in NZ had an overstocked tank like that I'd definately have something to say about it :evil: I can think of one :slfg: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critter_crazy Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 It would be a breach of the animal welfare act: ■proper and sufficient food and water ■adequate shelter ■the opportunity to display normal patterns of behaviour ■physical handling in a way which minimises the likelihood of unreasonable or unnecessary pain or distress ■protection from, and rapid diagnosis of, any significant injury or disease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirio Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 The last one with the arapima is fake for sure. The others, I'm 50/50 on them. If the fish are healthy and the water is clean then is it really an issue? I could think of far worse scenarios than a heavily stocked and well maintained tank. I agree. I would imagine someone with that kind of stocking level would know what they're doing in order to maintain such a bioload. As far as I could tell the fish look pretty healthy. Don't think they'd last too long if the owner didn't know how to keep a tank like that in balance. I'm pretty 50/50 on it aswell, guess it depends how you see it, and what sort of reaction you respond to it with. Ultimately matter of opinion really, right and wrong will always be in a constant duality and at the end of the day all they will be is different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 It would be a breach of the animal welfare act: ■the opportunity to display normal patterns of behaviour How do you define 'normal behaviour'? One could argue that desexing an animal is in breach of this as breeding is the function (or 'normal behaviour') for which animals exist. Does that mean I have to let my dogs hunt live animals because it is 'normal behaviour' for that kind of animal? Should all arowana be kept in open topped tanks with branches handing above where they can jump and grab live insects as that is their 'normal' method of feeding in the wild? Is it wrong for us to keep unpaired fish so they have no chance of reproducing therefore suppressing their 'normal behaviour'? As I said, if the water is clean, the fish healthy and the tank appropriately sized for the size of the largest fish, then where do you draw the line with how many fish you can fit in there? Its not my cup of tea, but the fish in those first two tanks all look very healthy and well cared for, its not like 4 big oscars in a grotty 120L tank with a single HOB filter and infrequent water changes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 A horse doesn't naturally walk around with a person on its back, cows don't normally get milked by something other than calves... :slfg: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critter_crazy Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I'm talking about the fish being able to move! :facepalm: These poor fish would be brushing up against eachother all the time. That's not gonna be good for them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZ_Loach Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Its the equivalent of us relieving ourselves in a bus, you all know how bad it is when someone farts in a bus :tears: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critter_crazy Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Pretty much! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 :facepalm: Isn't it the same for all fish tanks? If the filtration and water change schedule match the waste produced by the fish then whats the difference? Fish brush up against each other all the time in nature, 95% of aquariums are more heavily stocked than the average stretch of river or lake, so where do you draw the line? I've seen some pretty heavily stocked african cichlid tanks, would they be generating the same kind of response as these "jdm" tanks given that its pretty much standard practice to over-crowd mbuna tanks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirio Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 Hah, but it's mitigated by good biological support, and heavy water changes. In your case, open windows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZ_Loach Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 The difference is in a normal tank when the fish produce waste its diluted and then at the end of the week the waters changed. In a heavily stocked tank the percentage of crap to water is alot higher, even if you change the water daily theres still a higher exsposure to crap. Again, back to my comparisons... if one person craps in the corner of a hall, you are far less effected than if 10 or 20 people crapped in a corner or around the room aren't you? even if someone came in a scooped it up at the end of the day is that going to make you feel better? My fish can happily live in a 300 L tank yet, they are in a 1100L tank with more than double the necessary filtration :roll: so you can't tell me all fish tanks are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critter_crazy Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 I think anyone who calls themself a fish hobbiest should want the best for there little fishies. :tears: It shouldn't be about whether is CAN be done, its a case of whether it SHOULD be done. They are living breathing creatures after all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirio Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 The difference is in a normal tank when the fish produce waste its diluted and then at the end of the week the waters changed. In a heavily stocked tank the percentage of crap to water is alot higher, even if you change the water daily theres still a higher exsposure to crap. Again, back to my comparisons... if one person craps in the corner of a hall, you are far less effected than if 10 or 20 people crapped in a corner or around the room aren't you? even if someone came in a scooped it up at the end of the day is that going to make you feel better? My fish can happily live in a 300 L tank yet, they are in a 1100L tank with more than double the necessary filtration :roll: so you can't tell me all fish tanks are the same. No point arguing about this as I don't know the exact technical specifications of the tank, or what kind of biological filtration they use, and how water changes are performed and in what manner. Either way, fish look relatively healthy, so can't be too bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 No point arguing about this as I don't know the exact technical specifications of the tank, or what kind of biological filtration they use, and how water changes are performed and in what manner. Exactly, trying to claim that fish shouldn't be kept like that because of problems with water quality is absolute nonsense if you know nothing about the water quality, filtration and water change regime. GZ_Loach if you don't like fish being kept in that way then thats your opinion and its fine. Don't try to justify it as morally wrong for everyone though by using silly analogies and imaginary water problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burrowssj Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 David my once high opinion of you has diminished, because you are defending something that is so blatantly wrong. I mean cmon LOOK at those pictures there's no way all those fish are alive today. You speculate on the water quality an the fact that know one actually knows...blah blah, but the same can be said for fish quality, how do you know all of those fish weren't brought from healthy tanks 2hours before the photo was taken? How do you know that any of them are still alive or how massive the losses are? I do how ever agree with your statements about normal behavior, your never going to be able to give them a natural environment but I still don't think its any reason to stop trying altogether... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
critter_crazy Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 David my once high opinion of you has diminished, because you are defending something that is so blatantly wrong. I mean cmon LOOK at those pictures there's no way all those fish are alive today. You speculate on the water quality an the fact that know one actually knows...blah blah, but the same can be said for fish quality, how do you know all of those fish weren't brought from healthy tanks 2hours before the photo was taken? How do you know that any of them are still alive or how massive the losses are? I do how ever agree with your statements about normal behavior, your never going to be able to give them a natural environment but I still don't think its any reason to stop trying altogether... +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 how do you know all of those fish weren't brought from healthy tanks 2hours before the photo was taken? How do you know that any of them are still alive or how massive the losses are? How do you know they weren't kept in clean water? Its a matter of if's and buts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZ_Loach Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 If you look at any article or guide aimed at people starting out with fish keeping the number one thing they drill into you is keeping fish too large for the tank or too many fish for one tank. If anyone wants to defend overstocking put your hand up so i can right you down on my mental list of people that i think suck at fish keeping, this is only my "opinion" so don't be shy :sage: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackiePlecChan Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4d_qIGAiCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshlikesfish Posted June 17, 2011 Report Share Posted June 17, 2011 If anyone wants to defend overstocking put your hand up so i can right you down on my mental list of people that i think suck at fish keeping, this is only my "opinion" so don't be shy :sage: Try those stores that sell 10l goldfish bowls :nilly: I can think of a few example of local overstocking :nilly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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