how llong do i leave lights on without feeding water dragons

[dragonz1833]

repto dont come on my forum post and put crap on LA and everyone if u got your opinion say it not bad mouth every elses in put

thats why this is a forum for everyones opinion so whats yours??/

thanks

[livingart]

repto was just saying i should tell it straight not pussy foot around

they become more captive after each breeding generation

.

is not a true statement

this is a forum for everyones opinion

some opinions are based on years of experience

[dragonz1833]

yeah thats true i love my dragons thats why i double check with everyone to male sure im not screwing things up thats why all the questions

[repto]

your questions are not much better.You have been getting good advice from people who know but don`t seem to be any further down the track.Another exanple of someone who buys a few dragons or whatever and after a few internet googles is an expert.

[alanmin4304]

It might be a good idea for someone with a good deal of experience with reptiles to make a post explaining what brumation is, how it differs from hibernation, and how to achieve it. Bearing in mind that the conditions in Auckland are different to way down south. Once we get it sorted it could be made a sticky. I have a few lizards but don't know a lot about water dragons. It could cover water and bearded dragons, leopards, blue toungues and tortoises. Don't know about natives but if needed could include them as well. Could also include frogs. Who is going to step up to the mark?

[herperjosh]

It might be a good idea for someone with a good deal of experience with reptiles to make a post explaining what brumation is, how it differs from hibernation, and how to achieve it. Bearing in mind that the conditions in Auckland are different to way down south. Once we get it sorted it could be made a sticky. I have a few lizards but don't know a lot about water dragons. It could cover water and bearded dragons, leopards, blue toungues and tortoises. Don't know about natives but if needed could include them as well. Could also include frogs. Who is going to step up to the mark?

I don't think natives would be necessary I know some can still be active and eating at 4 degrees apparently. I know the native skinks though burmate I think

But not many people have natives here and the herpetological society has on their care sheet info on burmation I think

[Insect Direct]

is it fair to say brumation is a survival mechanism more so than a breeding one

[dragonz1833]

didnt know that so that means they will burmate by them selves pretty much?/

[alanmin4304]

It is brumation and the answer is yes. We are just trying to copy what happens in nature. They normally brumate when food is scarce.

[dragonz1833]

oh ok like now i have cut there food right down no bugs at all just salad and cat food and they dont eat that much one of my girls always goes to bed now so my other three are still up and about doing there thing

[livingart]

one of the greatest sources of worry is when, for one reason or another, your Reptiles refuse to eat for long periods of time, or become inactive and lethargic.

Don’t panic when this happens with no warning, if your temperatures are adequate, the diet is right and you have proper UVB lighting this may be your animal going into Brumation. Brumation is essentially the reptile equivalent of hibernation in mammals, with a few important differences.

Mammals, hibernate during the winter months, when food is scarce and its cold, , reptiles, However will Brumate for reasons other than lack of food, or cold temperatures and may Brumate at any time of the year.

Their bodies have evolved that way for hundreds of years in order to survive, while a shortage of food, less sunlight and colder Temps can trigger them to Brumate it also allows their bodies to have a rest period, this can produce higher hormone levels and a higher sperm count in the males for the next breeding season.

Some early hatchings may Brumate in their first year others may not, Once they become adults, however, many of them do brumate every year regardless of the weather conditions outside or temperature inside, and no matter what you try you won’t stop them. In fact you can damage them by trying to force feed them during this period as any undigested food may rot in their stomachs as their system shuts down. Reptiles have evolved with the ability to slow their metabolism down which enables them to eat nothing for long periods of time.

Moisture is the main requirement during Brumation as in the wild they bury themselves in soil to keep from freezing, they have the ability to draw in moisture from the soil, through their vent, keeping them hydrated.

[jc254]

talk english LA,its a load of crap!

jc234,your posts are becoming tiresome,a couple of months back you didn`t know how to transport a turtle,now you are an expert on brumation?Thats a hell of a big jump?

firstly i rarely make posts or comment on threads, but there you go.

Expert : A person who has a comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of or skill in a particular area

In my opinion a expert is someone who has completed a PHD, why because then you have the proven knowledge and skill to claim to be a 'expert' in any chosen feild of study/interest. However all to your own, from where i sit i can see 6 text books that i could reference for you that suggest captive conditions in breeding encourage domestication and breed out wild traits.

example: the fox, during WW2 a experiment was conducted on foxes to see if breeding increased domestication through the generations. Now evolution tells us that if there is no sign of the trait in the parents then the offspring wont display it (you cant show what you havnt got) However they saw a increased domestication, barking and the ears begin the drop down. Now if we use this is Water Dragons and when the last import was theoretically before June 1998 (could be off on dates) after each generation we would see further domestication. Also being that the population of water dragons in NZ is low we could argue that we are seeing a bottle neck in the population, where after each generation the genetic variation becomes tighter and tighter suggesting that the specie wouldn't be as hardy as its wild cousins. It would be more easily susceptible to disease, virus and poor captive conditions. If you took a 10x generation where the parents hadnt been hibernated to such a degree that you propose to do (or at all) then its off spring would find it really difficult to survive such a stress full encounter. Hibernation has been documented as a stress full act on any specie that undertakes it. Auckland may have the same temps as Queensland on paper but there a whole different environmental factors that influence hibernation such as; humidity, wind patterns, diet external environment e.g. substrate.

its midnight so i hope this all makes sense. just finished a genetic report for uni so im really over this subject.

However if i can be bothered i will tie this in with referenced articals and text books.

Lastly Repto i have a really good knowledge on reptiles and fish and you would be really amazed on what i know. Yes i have done ALLOT of research on hibernation of certain reptiles but its also a comfort to get the yes or no from someone else with direct experience on the matter.

Its not everyday that i take reptiles on a plane and during the CC earthquake i couldn't afford for security to turn me away.

[jc254]

is it fair to say brumation is a survival mechanism more so than a breeding one

bang on the $$$

it is a survival technique, reptiles if they could would eat all year round. However as we know reptiles are cold blooded requiring external source of temp e.g. sun. Without this their body isnt at a temp where the organs ect can function at a required level. So they stop eating because they cant digest it, the low temps stop all productivity slowing the reptile down, this is where they usually borrow to escape the extreme climates (rain, wind, frost ect) when the temps raise then the emerge, breeding could be tied as a stimulant response to the raised temps. It gives the eggs a adequate temperature to hatch at and more time to get ready for the cold season (build up fat stores)

If they didnt brumate they would die as they generally would freeze of starve to death. Its a survival Mechanism

[jc254]

and lastly before i put the keyboard away, i can see this coming up to bite me. No I am not a expert in reptile keeping. However who is? everyday we learn something new about our scaly friends, no one can possibly know everything about a reptile specie or in fact any specie.

I am undertaking a masters late next year in bio-security or something related but is doesn't qualify me as a expert so my theory in the above two posts i encourage you to disagree with me and it could be a interesting topic.

[blueether]

The foxes that you talk about were actively selected on domestic traits for breeding, that is huge selective pressure on that population for those traits.

Do most reptile breeders actively select on these sorts of traits?

[alanmin4304]

One of the problems with keeping reptiles in NZ is that there are few vets even that have a good knowledge of them and I would say that a vet has a proven qualification in animal husbandary. There are however a few people in NZ (some of whom come on this site) who have a vast knowledge of keeping and breeding reptiles even if it might be from experience rather than academia. I was hoping that some of these knowledgable and experienced people, either singularly or collectively could share some of this knowledge to be of assistance to newcomers to reptiles rather than a debate on who knows the most. There is always more than one way to do things and the right way is the way that works best for your reptile. Some good info on this site would be very useful for reptile keepers starting out.

One of my concerns is that red eared sliders have become so cheap that they are in danger of becoming throw away pets and beardies, water dragons, blue toungues and leopards seem to heading the same way. A site like this can do something to at least give new people some good advice on how to properly look after their new reptile pets.

[repto]

very informative post,where you slip up for me is using the term domestication for an animal that is just a miniature dinosaur and is millions of years of adaptation looking you in the eye.You should try that sometime,just look into their eyes?Don`t try to tell me that a few generations of captive breeding will make sod all difference to what they need or don`t need.

[repto]

One of the problems with keeping reptiles in NZ is that there are few vets even that have a good knowledge of them and I would say that a vet has a proven qualification in animal husbandary. There are however a few people in NZ (some of whom come on this site) who have a vast knowledge of keeping and breeding reptiles even if it might be from experience rather than academia. I was hoping that some of these knowledgable and experienced people, either singularly or collectively could share some of this knowledge to be of assistance to newcomers to reptiles rather than a debate on who knows the most. There is always more than one way to do things and the right way is the way that works best for your reptile. Some good info on this site would be very useful for reptile keepers starting out.

One of my concerns is that red eared sliders have become so cheap that they are in danger of becoming throw away pets and beardies, water dragons, blue toungues and leopards seem to heading the same way. A site like this can do something to at least give new people some good advice on how to properly look after their new reptile pets.

you can tell them till your blue in the face,most don`t want to know and carry on their own sweet way despite good advice based on experience,who is going to put with much of that for very long?

[alanmin4304]

I would feel better if some good advice from experienced people like yourself on how to do things properly was available here for those who do want to try to get it right. At least that way they have the choice.

[jc254]

The foxes that you talk about were actively selected on domestic traits for breeding, that is huge selective pressure on that population for those traits.

Do most reptile breeders actively select on these sorts of traits?

yes but keepers select for size/colour/temperament

these traits are all selected for in domestication

[jc254]

very informative post,where you slip up for me is using the term domestication for an animal that is just a miniature dinosaur and is millions of years of adaptation looking you in the eye.You should try that sometime,just look into their eyes?Don`t try to tell me that a few generations of captive breeding will make sod all difference to what they need or don`t need.

I would have to check my info but im going to blindly chuck this out there. Some reptiles are yes have fossil records that date back to the dinosaurs however some of them are newish and only appeared this late time period. The Cretaceous period is where we saw mammals move from water to land and allot of reptiles emerged from this stage. So some are only a few million years old. Many would argue that the dinosaurs where perfect creatures but a mass extinction saw them removed, every specie will naturally go extinct, if there are 1 million species in the world, one will go extinct every year for 1 million years. Its the way of life nothing is perfect. You can and do/will modify animal traits to our desire, if we look overseas their colour strains on Leopard Geckos suggests that in as little as 30 years a species genetic information can be twisted depending on how we like the colour of their skin, behavior and survival skills go hand in hand with this

[alanmin4304]

Regardless, some people try to treat them like cuddly toys. They are still reptiles and are normally solitary and usually only come together to fight or mate.

[jc254]

But yes I agree that there should be a sub forum with care sheets, where everyone has a input. Then they are written up and made locked stickys. However there will have to be a common thresh hold because everyone has different ways and techniques

[alanmin4304]

It is possible to include more than one way of doing things. People then have options.

[dragonz1833]

yeah i agree so how do we start this thing??