lduncan Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Wasp, Your NSW water contains zero Po4 and NO3. I have tested it. If it was anything other than undetectable then i'd be asking why you are using NSW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Been running Zeovit for 5 months now<> result so far Nitrate 15 <>Phosphate 2 <> I've started to look at other ways. Have ordered Phosphate remover for a start, and cut my feeding down. Actually Fay I was going to contact you, a recent experience I had has convinced me more than ever that your high nutrients are related to overfeeding. Here's what happened to me:- When I went zeovit, the tank, which had been green and infested with hair algae, cleaned up in a few weeks. Zero algae, flatworms dissappeared, tank looking real crisp. Then around 3 weeks ago my son (well meaning) came home with a copperband butterfly fish. My heart sank when I saw it, because it was pretty skinny. Put it in the tank and my suspicions where confirmed, it would not eat. So - spent the next ten days or so dumping major quantities of dirty stuff like mysis, brine, and whatever, into the tank, so much that the fish could not eat it, so there would be some floating around to tempt the copperband. Did this several times daily. the reason I was prepared to dump all this in the tank was overconfidence. The tank just looked so clean I didn't think anything could hurt it. Anyhow, the butterfly eventually died. However, a few days later cyano appeared, and then I saw hair algae starting to sprout, and even found some tiny flatworms, they must have been there all the time, in shrivelled up form. So, even with zeovit, I was just asking too much of the system, more than it could cope with. Have now gone back to normal feeding, and the tank is slowly cleaning up. The moral of the story is that even with zeovit, it can only do so much. If more than that is asked, it won't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Did you think I said I did a 20% waterchange in an hour? you must have misunderstood. check the post again. Don't recall seeing tissue recession due to a waterchange, but as you know I've never had tissue recession anyway. Don't suddenly drop Po4 and No3, because I use NSW, it probably increases Po4 and No3 when I do a change. Did you know that transient changes in nitrate levels over reefs can be over 3000ppm in a matter of a day. Or 0.54ppm in phosphate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Wasp, Your NSW water contains zero Po4 and NO3. I have tested it. Good point, those may be undetectable in both the NSW and the tank, but nonetheless I suspect they will be higher in the NSW, even though below the detection threshhold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 wasp, how can you expect any biological system to cope with a major increase in food. ALL systems will take time to adjust. Zeovit is not a magic chemical which immediately processes waste. Fay, I don't believe your problems are due to overfeeding. You feed less than me, and have a larger tank and more rock, I suggest that you don't adjust your feeding schedule as it could just compound your problem. If you have been feeding the same amount of food relatively constantly your tank will adjust. I am actually quite surprised that zeovit has not dropped your nitrates and phosphates. How old is the tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Did you know that transient changes in nitrate levels over reefs can be over 3000ppm in a matter of a day. Or 0.54ppm in phosphate? No I didn't. But just cos I didn't know does not mean I'm automatically going to say you're wrong, and then not proove it, as you constantly do to me. You may be correct, I wouldn't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 I am actually quite surprised that zeovit has not dropped your nitrates and phosphates. How old is the tank? I think you may have missed part of the plot. zeovit has dropped the nutrients. How old is the tank? something around a year or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 No I didn't. But just cos I didn't know does not mean I'm automatically going to say you're wrong, and then not proove it, as you constantly do to me. You may be correct, I wouldn't know. When I say something is wrong, I know it is wrong. BTW those two numbers were randomly generated by "Kleypas et al., 1999" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 I was talking about Fay's tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Layton, my post re the bacteria dosing, other than your following post where you pulled each sentence apart, just wondered if you thought it made any sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 In the context of a reef tank? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 When I say something is wrong, I know it is wrong. BTW those two numbers were randomly generated by "Kleypas et al., 1999" I think quite a bit of the unproovable stuff may be generated by "Kleypas et al., 1999 :lol: But hey, when you say something is wrong, and you "know" it is wrong, I still maintain it would be common courtesy to proove it, if it is a direct contradiction of what someone else said, just so folks know you didn't get your facts screwed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Nice to see all the interest in Zeovit, Buttttt. Can someone please post a few pics of a zeovit tank, before and after. like to see all those nice acros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Prove or disprove it for yourself. And yes Kleypas is a mythical person I made up to prove the unproovable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 First I got to actually GET the acros Reef, that's where I'm hoping you'll come in. At the moment I have one green one. When I get some more if I can, I'll photo upon arrival, and then in a few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Got some nice cultured acros due out soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Reef, I WANT that 3rd one down!! Some way to put my name on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 wasp, those valida's can be hard going trying to keep their colours, maybe the cultured ones will be a little more forgiving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 About a year and a half for large tank, only 4 months for the small tank which is connected via sump. Some of the large tank rock is over 2 and a half years due to up grade. I am not going to give up on zeovit, just going to give it a helping hand. Wasp: I did all your suggestions but got brown algea. Have dropped back to 1ml zeostart twice daily and put the reactor back to 24/7. I agree feeding has a big part if you dump food for sick fish, I have just had the same experience had to stop and haven't seen my poor Golden Headed Sleeper Goby for about a week My nitrates shot up to 30, did big water changes NSW and got it back to 15. Not so worried about Nitrates but I think phosphates running at 2 is tooo much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 I would be VERY careful if you are going to use phosphate remover with zeovit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Hi Fay, Well I do hope it all works out, although I would regard with caution the advice given to just keep feeding the same and it will all sort itself out. The simple maths is if phosphate in is greater than phosphate out, there will be a phosphate problem. If you want to go the phosphate remover route, Layton is likely correct, may pay to disconnect the zeovit at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Here is a quote from "Jacstat" at RC, he is a reefer, and by trade a scientist of molecular immunology. I post it as it can put to rest the idea that there is no point in dosing bacteria to an already cycled tank. - "As far as biology, I don't know much about Zeo. What I do know is that if one wants to introduce a new complement of bacteria to a closed environment, one would not want to do it quickly. A small inoculation would be adequate, especially considering that the inoculation is repeated every day or two, over weeks. It would be strange to me if Zeobak did contain a high concentration of bacteria. As I've said earlier, these are living organisms that need to adjust and grow into their new environment. You can't bring these populations up and into equilibrium overnight. This is basic biology. As for viability, I see no reason why chemolithotrophs can't be kept in a bottle at room temp for months, particularly at the concentrations described (10e6/mL). As for contamination, I think that's ridiculous. If you think that it's any kind of feat to isolate and expand cultures without contamination then I'm not sure if whose intelligence you're insulting. This was doable 100 years ago. Solbby and I do this sort of things everyday, sometimes with irreplaceable samples." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 I post it as it can put to rest the idea that there is no point in dosing bacteria to an already cycled tank. Umm no it doesn't. Lets say that conditions are moderately suitable for what ever bacteria is being added. So lets say they multiply every 12 hours (20 minutes in perfect conditions). For my tank I would add 6 drops of zeobak on day 1. End of day 1 Tank contains 24 equivalent drops of bacteria. Day 2 add another 6 drops. End of day 2 tank contains 120 equivalent drops of bacteria. Day 3 add another 6 drops. End of day 3 tank contains 504 equivalent drops of bacteria. Day 4 add another 6 drops. End of day 4 tank contains 2040 equivalent drops of bacteria. At this point if you had only dosed ONCE the tank would contain 1536 equivalent drops. Less than 12 hours discrepancy between these two numbers. Now there is always a limiting factor to growth. So if in fact these bacteria essential require the same nutrients, now what happens to the existing bacteria which were once using them? Well of course they die, polluting the tank. So what have you achieved? You've replaced one bacteria strain with another. Or you've substantially reduced the population of one strain, in order to support another. So if the bacteria are suited to the tank, they will multiply on their own to the equilibrium determined by available nutrients. If they are not suited then they will die. In either case, after a one off initial dose, what happens it is no longer up to you. Hence why I say that continual dosing is a waste of time. Added to the fact that more than likely at one point in time, the bacteria you are dosing in the form of zeobak, would have made it into your tank already, and if conditions were right, it would have colonised. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 Oh well, guess the guy was just a scientist in molecular immunology. What would he know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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