reef Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 I have finally had the time to start the miracle mud system running with a protein skimmer. I am sick of trying to get my PO4/ Nitrates to zero. My tank still reads .020ppm Po4 and 2ppm Nitrate. Using 2L of salifert phosphate remover which has helped, however using it in a canister filter is not that great as you have force the water through it and using the canister filter the water just goes around it. Read so much about it and the tanks that use it look great. Also less maintenance in the long run. here are some pics of the sump being completed with the chambers and slots. Tomorrow i will connect to tank and add mud and algae. more pics to come. info on mud system http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/whyDoesItWork.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 I thought the whole point of the media trays in cannisters was to make sure the water is forced through the media. My 404s seem like they'd do a pretty good job of it. Or is the salifert phosphate remover so dense the water just can't go through it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted January 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Most phosphate removers are very dense. rowaphos can be fluidised but the salifert cant as it breaks up. The MM is very natural as the algae will use up all the nitrate & phosphate I am paining to get the algae growing well then I am going to remove my skimmer and run skimless if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holiday Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 A mate of mine is running a skimmerless MM ecosystem and things are looking great. Once the algae takes off you'll have no problems removing the skimmer (TOUCH WOOD) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifty Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 my brother is using the mm system, seems to be going very well and his tank looks great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skuzza Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Have you thought about moving the inlet hole from the bio balls to the caulerpa down to the bottom and put another strip of glass in to hold the m mud bead so you wont get a dead spot or even a place where waste will collect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Question - I thought the purpose of using a skimmer was to remove nutrients? I thought the purpose of growing calurpa was to remove nutrients? If so, how does adding MM help remove nutrients, as it adds them? Won't the skimmer just remove the nutrients the MM adds? Wouldn't you get better results growing the calurpa without the MM? Just curious, I like the idea of no skimmer but not sure how the MM system actually works when used with a skimmer or why you would use MM to grow calurpa when you can do so without the MM. Good luck with it, am very interested to see how it goes. Pieman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted January 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Question - I thought the purpose of using a skimmer was to remove nutrients? I thought the purpose of growing calurpa was to remove nutrients? If so, how does adding MM help remove nutrients, as it adds them skimmer does not remove phostphate/nitrate. As mentioned i am going to remove the skimmer once all the calurpa is growing. Yes calurpa does grow without MM, but if you read the article about MM, test have shown that it is not as good. research done by Mike Paletta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kermit Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Here's a site that did a lab test on the mud breaking it down into it's compounds, 30% silicon dioxide wow. http://www.reefs.org/library/article/mm_analysis.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 its ok Pies You or I dont have phosphates or nitrates so it would be silly to waste our money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 its ok Pies You or I dont have phosphates or nitrates so it would be silly to waste our money I bet you do. It's a very bold claim to say you don't. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Layton - Whats the bet? I bet I don't, nothing bold about it. My test kits for Nitrate & Phosphate (x3 resoultion) are zero according to salifert. Steve is running ZEOVIT so I think its highly likley his a zero. Zero being as low as the test kits will test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holiday Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 With the trend going towards natural ecosystems, miracle mud came about. It is supposed to release valuable trace elements and nutrients into the system and enhance the growth of calurpa algaes for phosphate and nitrate removal and other wase products. I believe these systems have to be on a larger scale to be more effective and are really only suited to low stocked systems with little waste. Systems that have higher stock levels and that are heavally feed should look into the algae turf scrubber methods. This makes for some interesting reading if you have the time. I will post a link soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 4, 2005 Report Share Posted January 4, 2005 Zero being as low as the test kits will test. Exactly! It doesn't mean there isn't any there. Nitrate has been shown to affect coral colouration at concentrations less than 0.1ppm. ( Also the cadmium reduction test method used by almost all test kits, is notoriously sensitive to obscure parameters such as the timing of when you compare colours, as well as how vigourously you shake the reagents.) Also, as a side note, I heard that Brendons tank crashed. Is this true? It would be a shame if it has, from what I heard it was quite impressive. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_from_nz Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 I am not sure if this is the article I am thinking of but it prety much says there is phosphate in every reef tank http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=2276 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Layton - So MM is going to reduce the amount of Phosphate and Nitrate from 0 (on the test kit) to 0 (in relality?). Thus doing a better job than a system without MM? I am curious to see how it goes, but I suspect MM is a fad/phase. HOWEVER I am still quite interested in a skimmer free system. As for Brendons tank I don't know, I am in Wellington not Auckland. Perhapps someone knows if this is true? And it would be a shame, no-one has (had?) nicer hard coral colours than what I saw in Brendons tank, truley stunning. Alois - Is there an equation for how much MM/how big a sump, how much calurpa you need per volume of water? Like for my tank (1460 litre) how big a sump do I need before I can turn off the skimmer? Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Layton - So MM is going to reduce the amount of Phosphate and Nitrate from 0 (on the test kit) to 0 (in relality?). Thus doing a better job than a system without MM? No I was just saying that it's a bold claim to make that your tank has no phosphate / nitrate. MM may well do a better job. I mean looking at some of the analysis of this stuff, it's probably nothing more than river sand, and river sand (from Mitre 10) has managed to reduce my nitrates very effectively in my DSB, and macro algae is growing at a few cm in linear length a day. As for it being a fad... it may well be, but it doesn't mean it won't work or has no solid foundation. Looking at the hype surrounding zeovit in the States at the moment, I can't help but laugh, you'd think the way some talk, it's some revolutionary product and the only way to get colourful corals. If that's not a fad, i don't know what is. I'm not saying zeovit doesn't work, clearly it does, but from what I see and experience, it has some serious dangers and unknowns attached to it as well. There is usually more than one way to achieve the same result. MM appears to be one option. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kermit Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Here ya go Pies. http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/m ... ation.html From what this site say's you'd need about 30-35Kg's of the stuff.. How much is this stuff /Kg anyways?? Kermit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 I spoke with Brendan recently, his tank did not crash. What happened he let his calcium reactor run unchecked too long, and calcium and alk went to dangerous low levels, damaging some sps. Bummer but could happen to anyone. As to zero phosphate levels, zero is different to undetectable. Phosphate is a necessity of life and present in all living organisms. If a tank had no phosphate at all, it would also have no life. Even the highly regarded Salifert hobby kit only checks two of the four main forms phosphate takes in our tanks. I was getting zero readings even when I had a hair algae problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Jeez this turned into a little exercise in symantics. From now on, speaking only for myself, if I am refuring to 0 Phosphates or 0 Nitrates I mean 'getting them as low as practically possible and "undetectable" according to the test kits I have'. I concede that there are probably electron microscopes and all sorts of other tools out there to find trace amounts of there compounds but for all intense and purposes '0' means 'not enough to matter'. Wasp lots of things could cause hair algae other than phosphates. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Wasp lots of things could cause hair algae other than phosphates. Pie Dissagree. No phosphate, no hair algae. It's that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted January 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 What happened he let his calcium reactor run unchecked too long, and calcium and alk went to dangerous low levels, damaging some sps. Bummer but could happen to anyone. Now i doubt you would lose so many coral due to low alk & cal. maybe over time but not within a month. low kh &cal will not crash you tank. i have had my cal down to 300 ppm for a month. not a problem, but the coral did not grow. I put in down to zeovit as i had the same problem 2 yrs ago and so did a friend of mine. you have to really follow the instructions to the letter. Also putting acid in you tank cant be that good either. Hair algae does not mean you high phostphate. i aways had hair algae in my sump but never in my tank.. but today after 12 hours i finally changed sumps and removed the hair algae for good, i hope. Having zero phostphates is not the be end all. with MM it also take out other organics that the skimmer cant take out. its ok Pies You or I dont have phosphates or nitrates so it would be silly to waste our money Then way waste your money on Zeovit, what did it do for your tank? if anything. here are some updated pics of the new sump and the 3 types of algae. be good to see which algae grows the best. before after Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Dissagree. No phosphate, no hair algae. It's that simple. Except for when you had hair algae and test kits showing 0 phosphate, but somehow you still think its phosphate? Just a different type of phosphate than the one the test kits detect? I think its more likley likley that other water paramaters could be to blame, or lighting or a combination. If the cure to hair algae was no phosphate, the adding phosban or similar would cure it almost instantly, but it doesnt. Why is hair algae so common in new tanks while cycling when phosphate usually builds up over time? Infact if you were at my house now you could see the hair algae growing on the glass of one of my sumps, nowhere else in my system. I have 0 phosphate (see definition above), I belive I get hair algae in this tank because it gets a bit of natural sunlight. I like it in there though as its loaded with PODs and other critters, doesn't seem to do any harm. Alois - how much MM is in there? Looks good, I am curious about how long it takes for the calurpa to take hold. Will you light it 24/7? Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted January 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 sump lights to be 24/7 4 bags of mud used. Once algae grows will reduce skimming to 12 hours a day. andd if i got totally skimless i will convert top sump into another mud system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted January 5, 2005 Report Share Posted January 5, 2005 Except for when you had hair algae and test kits showing 0 phosphate, but somehow you still think its phosphate? Just a different type of phosphate than the one the test kits detect? Pie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CORRECT! I "somehow" as you put it, was only measuring soluble inorganic phosphates, which were undetectable at the time. When you tested your tank with the hair and pods in it, and came up with zero, you were obviously blissfully unaware of the polyphosphates, bound orthophosphates, and other phosphates which your Salifert kit cannot detect, but which are all clearly in your tank. Also be aware that these forms of phosphate change from one to the other, and are responsible for people thinking they have no phosphate, when in fact the levels are higher than optimum. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PARTLY CORRECT - Light does not cause algae. Light PLUS NUTRIENTS do. Phosban will remove enough phosphate to kill hair algae, if used correctly. How do I know? I've done it. And why is algae common in tanks during cycling? Because of all the phosphates being released. Try testing a cycling tank for phosphate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Algae and loads of pods are signs of excess phosphate. Pods don't need sun, and yet you are testing 0 phosphate. Again, that is because you think you are testing the phosphate, when in fact all you are testing is the soluble inorganic phosphate, which is likely far from the true state of affairs in your tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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