Babyruby Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 I have a breeding of Panda cory's and 1 sinlge male Smudge cory, as it turns out I discovered last night this smudge spot has bred with my pandas and I now have young corys that look like pandas but with spots and some older ones that look like tail spots. I thought my son had been rearranging my fish again so had to double check all my 5 tail spots were still where I put them, and they were, I was astonished at this discovery. I have never come across this before, I just been told cross bred cory's wont breed (infertile/sterile). I am getting smudge spot cory next week, I will moving this male smudge spot today to a separate tank..... As for the young cross what do I do with them there is at least 10 of them ranging in size and age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscnz Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Ill be keen to take them and grow them out in one of my tanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippy_49nz Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Take those which look the most like the smudgespots and breed them with the other one you are getting and the existing one. They will slowly breed out the panda in them and become "pure" again over a few generations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Take those which look the most like the smudgespots and breed them with the other one you are getting and the existing one. They will slowly breed out the panda in them and become "pure" again over a few generations. If only genetics was actually that simple and straightforward. A phenotype is merely what you get to see because of the dominant genes in the animals genotype. Choosing for a phenotype over generations won't make the genotype pure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Take those which look the most like the smudgespots and breed them with the other one you are getting and the existing one. They will slowly breed out the panda in them and become "pure" again over a few generations. Technically they would only be hybrids line bred to look like your smudge ones this is only really a last resort for if you are going to loose a species even then you aren't going to get it back by cross breeding.. I would keep and enjoy the fry and never pass them on, you don't really want people getting them renaming them and breeding them passing them on as pure to be bred with other stock and mucking up other lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Luckily we can be more relaxed about south americans huh? :lol: Next to no risk of a 'line getting ruined' :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 IMO breeding 2 different species of fish together should be bad no matter what fish you keep But that is just my opinion.. I guess it would depend on what the smudge spots were? Are they the same scientific name as the pandas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 :lol: It's chilled in the catfish section Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malevolentsparkle Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 true hybrids are biological rubbish according to biologists. i'm not so sure myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscnz Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hybrids are how we get some cool fish people are just stupid to the fact that most fish have cross breed at some stage to form new breeds of fish that we all enjoy today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 not quite... but different take on the matter I suppose. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hybrids are how we get some cool fish people are just stupid to the fact that most fish have cross breed at some stage to form new breeds of fish that we all enjoy today The whole hybrid thing can go round and round and get nowhere, you have an interesting opinion. Can you give examples of the fish that have been cross bred to give fish we enjoy today? I will give you parrot fish and a few african peacocks but what others are there that aren't descended direct from the wild? Sure they might be different colour morphs but most are line bred not cross bred to get these colours, there is a huge difference.. How would you like to go into a petshop and find all the fish in there were unlabelled just random fish that nobody knew what they were, how they were to behave and what colour they would be, how big they would grow etc? How would you like to pay good money for a "pure" fish with a name to find it go a different colour or behave differently later on because someone somewhere had crossed it with something and then someone else had decided it was pure and demanded good money for it? They do cause issues in the hobby especially with such a small fish keeping community and lower quality of imported stock. There is some discussion on it here http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ob_peacock.php At the end of the day my opinion is to keep what you like breed what you like but when you end up passing it on inevitably it may cause issues down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-town... Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 so in theory all discus would be hybrids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babyruby Posted October 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 You all have some really good points to raise. If I was to keep what has been bred, and try and breed those ones only, I wouldn't know if they were fertile/sterile or not as I have read and been told most hybrids are unbreedable. I don't doubt that these hybrids are good looking fish, they look very healthy and very good sized, I have not noticed and deformities in any of them. I read yesterday when doing some research on this issue, that the hybrids should never be sold on as it will cause controversy as the breed they are and renaming them etc, so I'm a little unsure as to what to do, I do like the new fish I have, and I have quite a few of them all ranging in size. I would like to keep some of them, and see if they will breed if it's possible for them to breed that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 It may be a case of hybrid vigor. Animals that are closely related, like dogs, can interbreed and one of two main things will happen - they will either take on the weakest traits of each of their parents and be unfit for survival (outbreeding depression) or they can take on the strongest traits of their parents and be 'stronger' than a pure bred (hybid vigor) - they can also be somewhere in between. When an animal is line bred to other closely related individuals, it can also result in inbreeding depression where the purebred is not as 'strong' as a mixed breed. This phenomena is relatively common in dogs whereas it is less common in horses. I am not sure how common it is in fishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted October 22, 2010 Report Share Posted October 22, 2010 people are just stupid to the fact that most fish have cross breed at some stage to form new breeds of fish that we all enjoy today I think you're confusing natural selection with hybridisation. It is unlikely that separate species of fish occupying the same piece of water that haven't crossed in countless generations would suddenly cross-breed and form a "new species". Perhaps after an extreme event like a flood where two separate populations are suddenly mixed there is a slim chance that they might be compatible and cross breed, but the vast majority of the time its environmental factors [natural selection, survival of the fittest, call it what you like] that shape a species, not hybridisation. In fact its more often likely to be the opposite, where one species occupying a large area gradually becomes two different species due to different environmental factors or geographic isolation. Unless you're talking about man-made hybrids, which would make up only a small portion of aquarium fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippy_49nz Posted October 22, 2010 Report Share Posted October 22, 2010 This sounds like the typical pleco situation... I know it well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovmoller Posted October 22, 2010 Report Share Posted October 22, 2010 No need to make the problem worse than it already is by a "seeing if these guys will breed" attitude. Keep it natural I say (ie. try to breed as true to natural species as possible and avoid excessive inbreeding as well) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruju Posted October 23, 2010 Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 I think you're confusing natural selection with hybridisation. It is unlikely that separate species of fish occupying the same piece of water that haven't crossed in countless generations would suddenly cross-breed and form a "new species". Perhaps after an extreme event like a flood where two separate populations are suddenly mixed there is a slim chance that they might be compatible and cross breed, but the vast majority of the time its environmental factors [natural selection, survival of the fittest, call it what you like] that shape a species, not hybridisation. In fact its more often likely to be the opposite, where one species occupying a large area gradually becomes two different species due to different environmental factors or geographic isolation. Unless you're talking about man-made hybrids, which would make up only a small portion of aquarium fish. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babyruby Posted October 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 This sounds like the typical pleco situation... I know it well. Yes I know all about this situation so very well also..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Then you already know the main problem with intentionally and knowingly adding more hybrids to the pool in NZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babyruby Posted October 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Yea I do, but there is a difference between intentionally and accidentaly. In my case it was accidental, I sure as hell didn't see it coming........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Yeah I agree with that, but by seeing if they will breed will just make more of them, I would move them into a tank where all fry/eggs will be eaten by tank mates and just enjoy them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Or you could just keep the babies! Most catfish aren't like Africans that breed, breed and breed. I say if you have the babies, keep them. They are yours to do what you like with. You don't just kills something for the sake of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscnz Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 I agree with P44 culling sux just becouse something is different doesnt mean you dont love it as much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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