Betta fin rot AGAIN?! Help please.. something more serious??

[Popsicool]

Hi all, my little Betta is not looking too flash and I really hope someone can give some advice.. I got him a month and a half ago from Albany HFF. He lives in a 20l tank with two peppered corys, a couple of pieces of driftwood and lots of lovely plants he can swim through and hide in. He is always really happy and active, coming to the one spot where I feed him when it's feeding time, eats bloody worms off my fingers, shows off when I'm around etc.

About a week after we got him, he started looking a bit haggard and tatty and after some research we figured he had fin rot. Took the water to get tested, everything was perfect! Got some Pimafix which did nothing, he kept getting worse. A few days later, we got some Wunder Tonic (the red stuff). Followed instructions and after about a week he started looking better! Another week and I noticed his fins started regrowing (1/2 the size they used to be but still starting to even out..).

And then yesterday, I notice his tail is wasting away again and his fin edges are getting tatty! ARGH!! So I think he has fin rot AGAIN?! Last night I got him started on the Tonic and Pimafix again but I was wondering if there's anything else I could/should do? Is it normal for fin rot to be recurring??

I got a master test kit today to make sure it's not the water. Strangely pH is reading 6.6 today when just over a week ago it was 7. What would have made it go down??

Ammonia, nitrite & nitrate are all zero.

Him and corys get along really well. Most of the time they ignore each other apart from when I drop a pellet for the corys and Bentley has a go at it at the same time as them.

Two weeks ago I did a 75% water change because the plants were getting a bit wild so I wanted to add more gravel & re-organise and replant the plants. Could that have stressed him out?

As I was taking photos to show you guys, I also noticed something light/golden/yellowish by his belly/ventral fins. Is there normal??

Ok, here's some photos! Any opinions/advice would be much appreciated!!

(I tried embedding the photos but I'm being told images can't be more than 645 pixels high and wide. Mine are 640 x 480 so I don't know what to do! Please use the links instead...)

Photo showing where a bit of his tail is disappearing and the ends are tatty:

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab28 ... G_1462.jpg

Close up of tail edges - those while ends are clear indicators of fin rot, right?

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab28 ... G_1491.jpg

Here you can see the golden yellow patch on his belly:

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab28 ... G_1463.jpg

And another close-up of the patch, it looks like golden sprinkles on his ventral fins:

http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab28 ... G_1497.jpg

[Allister_B]

very interesting!, have you asked adriene on here? pm her she may know more about this. im not sure about the gold/yellow, but fin rot, yes fins turn a white color on the edges, a simple solution is adding tonic salt to your tank.

[Adrienne]

If you think that its finrot and it does sound like it and you have treated it with the more gentle remedies but it has returned I would go to furan2. It works against most bacteria and generally when finrot is on its second round it is likely to be bacterial, and a lot faster working. Its best to move the fish as you can use less sachets to treat. Furan2 has a warning as it has been found to cause cancer in mice etc so you need to be careful when using it.

The belly of your fighter looks okay to me, the yellow sprinkles you are referring to could be small holes developing in the fins. If you look closely you may see a pinky red waterstain looking line up above where the fins and tail are tatty. That is a guaranteed sign of finrot, that is the next point where they will fray too and is definitely bacterial if it shows that.

I would treat with furan2 which is a 4 day course, keep the water as clean as possible as well.

I'm going on holidays today but good luck.

[Popsicool]

Thank you so much Allister and especially Adrienne for sharing your vast knowledge!

Furan2 sounds like the right next step - where does one buy it?

[Sunbird73]

http://www.hollywoodfishfarm.co.nz/deta ... der/m/943/

[Popsicool]

Thank you!! Back to the fish farm it is...

[Popsicool]

I set up a new tank which I can hopefully transfer Bentley into tomorrow.

BUT, I just tested the pH in his current tank and it's dropped significantly since yesterday! Even yesterday it was lower than a week prior. It's down to 6.0-6.4.

What's going on - what does my pH keep dropping so drastically?! Could the Tonic be causing it?

[Moya]

Just an side note, but I once had an interesting discussion with a lovely beta breeder about water flow effects. Apart from the standard problems arising from strong current (mr fighter being sucked up against the intake or battered about by the outake) he also showed me that adjusting the water flow even slightly will affect the quality of the fins. They naturally occupy very still pools of water, so the closer to this ideal you can achieve (without adversely affecting the filtration) the better. He told me to turn the drip rate down of the filter on the fighter-bay for one specimen in paticular who could have looked better (the drips were already pretty slow too), and the results were excelent! Nice smooth caudal fin, no more tattyness, yay!

[phoenix44]

Does not look like fin rot to me.

[Joshlikesfish]

Is there anything that he can catch his tail on and rip it?

[Popsicool]

Moya - thank you for sharing your experience. I always keep his water flow very low to try emulate the natural conditions. I only make it stronger for a short while when adding the medicine so it mixes it around nicely.

phoenix - what makes you say so? I'm thinking the milky white ends and disappearance and then reappearance of tattiness confirm it..

Josh - only thing is driftwood which he LOVES playing around. But again the fact that that his fins were regrowing and ends evened out after first treatment and now it's tatty again leads to be believe that's not the cause..

Any ideas on the pH mystery drop?

[phoenix44]

All I see is a cut tail that is healing as best as it can. The new cell growth will be colourless when you look at it that closely.

Is there a particular reason your fish would get fin rot? I mean are the water conditions in the tank poor?

Doesn't seem that way with your water test results.

Also, pH 7 to 6.6 is not really a pH drop. It'll probably settle at that value.

[Popsicool]

All I see is a cut tail that is healing as best as it can. The new cell growth will be colourless when you look at it that closely.

Is there a particular reason your fish would get fin rot? I mean are the water conditions in the tank poor?

Doesn't seem that way with your water test results.

Also, pH 7 to 6.6 is not really a pH drop. It'll probably settle at that value.

It dropped from 7 a week or so ago to 6.6 yesterday, and today it's in between 6.0 and 6.4.

Water conditions seem great from what I can see. Water is beautifully clear and there are no algae at all. The only thing I can note is jelly-like white buildup around the rubber top part of my heater - I understand this is non-harmful bacterial as a result of this being quite a new tank? I generally pick it off with my hand when I do water changes.

You could definitely be right about the tail just being cut and healing but it that in conjunction with the generally tattiness returning has me worried. Especially after all the ends started evening out so nicely after first treatment..

GAH. I love the little guy and it's stressing me out to think he's unwell!

[pink_fish]

Sounds like you are doing all the right things and I think maybe Phoenix is right about it not being finrot. When a fish has finrot, in my experience, its whole condition becomes poor and they start to look a bit sorry for themselves, whereas your guy looks fine. I also find that when I keep my males with long fins (i.e. anything with a tail longer than a plakat!) standard planted tanks (as opposed to small, completely unfurnished 'display' tanks) often tear up their fins – they catch them on anything even vaguely rough – like the substrate, for example, because they are such curious little people who always like to squeeze into small spaces, under things, between things, etc. The piscine version of felines, lol.

The yellow specks – my first thought was velvet, but I don't know whether it is or not as I've not ever had a fish with it! If the patch isn't growing, and he otherwise seems in good health, I wouldn't worry, but you might wish to continue researching just in case (perhaps looking up velvet?).

The pH – don't worry about this. As a tank becomes more established, the pH will naturally drop as it matures. If it hovers around 6.0 you're sweet as.

[Popsicool]

Thank you pink_fish.

You're right, he seems very healthy going by his behaviour. He is super active and would eat all day long if I was willing to feed him. I fed him a lot this morning just to make sure he's happy and well nourished and then I was checking out some plants through an open top early afternoon and he came over and started jumping out of the water thinking there was more food happening!! Sheesh..

He does also love squeezing himself into tiny spots between driftwood and glass so that could be it.

I guess I'll keep him on the Tonic for another week and as long as he doesn't get worse, furan2 will have to wait.

Wish us luck and I'll update how we go!

As for the pH, I was told the pH needs to be around 7 for the fighters. Will he be ok if it establishes itself around 6 instead?!

[pink_fish]

Yup, pH anywhere between 6–7.5 will be fine. More important are other water parameters, anyway – like whether or not you've got ammonia, lol! If the fish is happy, the pH doesn't really matter. Some established tanks will drop further too – 5.5 etc. – again, if the fish are happy, no problemo.

I wouldn't use Furan unless you're absolutely sure what illness you are treating. Furan is an antibiotic, and just like with humans, misusing them can encourage bacteria to become resistant and/or kill off good bacteria too.

Keep us updated.

[ryanjury]

Yup, pH anywhere between 6–7.5 will be fine. More important are other water parameters, anyway – like whether or not you've got ammonia, lol! If the fish is happy, the pH doesn't really matter. Some established tanks will drop further too – 5.5 etc. – again, if the fish are happy, no problemo.

I wouldn't use Furan unless you're absolutely sure what illness you are treating. Furan is an antibiotic, and just like with humans, misusing them can encourage bacteria to become resistant and/or kill off good bacteria too.

Keep us updated.

You are right PH doesn't matter provided it is in the normal sort of range, but PH fluctuations are bad and can cause stress on the fish and future issues.

[pink_fish]

Yes, quite right. I should have said I meant stable pH.

[Popsicool]

Thanks again to everyone for their help, thought I'd post an update.

Furan2 treatment sounded too hard out for something that I wasn't even sure was fin rot since Bentley way very active and happy looking! I just gave him one dose of Wunder Tonic and kept observing. I noticed more of the milky-clear growth on the ends and figured phoenix44 was probably right saying the fins are just repairing themselves! I've been observing him a lot more since and he really does keep squeezing himself through the tightest spots! It's like his little hobby. :roll:

So it seems the fin damage is purely from having too much fun, which is ok with me!

On another topic, I "accidentally" bought him a little girlfriend yesterday so we're playing the mating game. Off to post, with a million questions, in the newly discovered Anabantoids subforum!