Lighting - T5 VS Metal Halide

[Deepsound]

ADA 90x45x45cm Cube Garden Clear, OptiWhite Glass, 8mm thick.

(...)

I want Bolbitis, Java fern varieties, a few grasses and some moss in my tank. Like this one:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... -45-a.html

According to me, for a 45cm height tank, you don't need a metal halide light but if you want nice and natural reflections on the ground.

If you want to set up a beautiful Luís Moniz's tank like, you can do it without metal halide. Fissidens fontanus, mosses, java fern and lilaeopsis don't need a lot of light to grow. You can use T5 as well.

Have you heard about JEBO lighting ?

I've been used one (4 x 39 w T5, Lumilux 6500K) for 2 years.

About PC light, there are now 125w and even 250 w bulbs, full spectrum at low price.

The electronic ballast is inside the bulb. So, very easy to install, you just need a socket...

What about a DIY lighting ?

[Deepsound]

May be this could help you ?

A comparison between light sources used in planted aquaria.

http://www.aquabotanic.com/lightcompare.htm

[Deepsound]

i dont want to put you off or anything and i love your enthusiasm BUT

DIY co2 wont work on a tank that size and with a light that powerful you will just be growing algae due to the unbalance of co2/light

I agree about the balance of CO2/light.

And about the much too big power Joe wants to use (in my opinion ).

But it depends on the DIY method you use

With just plastic bottle, "may be" not enough CO2.

"May be" because it also depends on the plants you use.

For mosses and javafern, it will work.

But you can use another method.

Have to get :

- a pulverizer you use in a garden or a greenhouse.

- gelatine you use for cooking.

You can even add a bubble counter, a valve and a pollen diffuser if you like it.

[Joe]

I'm confused now! That article is really complicated and confusing to me, because I don't know that much about lighting! I'm not even sure if we can get that OSRAM lighting in NZ. You live in Paris, so you will probably be able to get it there. In NZ we are limited to only a small range of products and can't really get all that fancy stuff . So are you basically saying that I should do is what I was originally planning and use only T5? That tank is REALLY awesome, but I would not be able to even come close to that setup as half or more of the plants used in that setup are illegal in NZ. Sadly, we can't even get Fissidens fontanus . Another thing that I really get confused about is who's advice to use. Everyone has their own opinions and stuff and the advice that I'm given is really good, but some people say opposit things to each other, and that makes it really hard for me because I don't know who's advice to take! You are saying I don't need metal halide, Evil_elmo thinks it's a good idea, and Antwan said that one metal halide alone is enough for a 90x45x40cm tank, and Evil_elmo originally said one isn't enough spread fo a tank the size that I want. The reason that I was wanting to get the Arcadia one is because Luis Moniz used something similar in his tank, and he used 2x T5 tubes with his MH, and his tank was a huge success with the lighting he used and his plants are amazing. Sorry if it sounds like I'm being rude and/or rejecting your advice, but I'm not, I get really confused when I'm in these situations and maybe if you could simplify things for me? I'm only 12, and don't understand half of the advice I'm given when it's long and complicated because I've only seen/heard of a small percentage of the products that are out there, and haven't done any research on some of these other ones because I try to pick things that most people have success with. I also don't mind paying heaps for a quality lightinghood and tank. So far the T5 light tubes that I really like are the Hagen T5HO Life-Glos. I saw some at the shop for sale, and they are quite cheap, and I read on the packaging and they sound really good, better that Power-Glos which is what a lot of people tend to use (mainly in tanks with lots of plants, like Dutch-style tanks). I'm sort of going for something like an Amano-style and a Luis Moniz style.

[Deepsound]

I'm confused now! That article is really complicated and confusing to me, because I don't know that much about lighting!

So forget this article.

You can use T5 for your project

I'm not even sure if we can get that OSRAM lighting in NZ. You live in Paris, so you will probably be able to get it there. In NZ we are limited to only a small range of products and can't really get all that fancy stuff .

Yep I live in Paris, but now, I try to be careful about this point

Before I told you about, I saw some blue one osram t5 on Trademe. So I said to myself, may be...

And on this website, I found this.

http://www.pacifikstar.co.nz/brochure/PST5_Product_Brochure.pdf

They use OSRAM T5 in their lignthing.

So i think Osram could be found in NZ

At first, Lumilux is an industrial light. But many aquarists found it could be used successfully for aquaria. I've been using them for 3 years and they work very well. More than this : they are pretty less expensive.

[Deepsound]

Sadly, we can't even get Fissidens fontanus

I bought mine on Aquaticmagic website, Singapour based.

As I remember, it's free shipping for the first order

[spoon]

I bought mine on Aquaticmagic website, Singapour based.

As I remember, it's free shipping for the first order

even though the company may be prepared to ship here if you get caught having plants corals or other livestock shipped here or in your possession without proper paperwork and you can face big fines and jailtime.

i mean i could go on ebay and get some killifish eggs shipped to me in a foil packet customs may or may not pick up on it if they did i would expect to be in a lot of trouble

[Deepsound]

Sorry if it sounds like I'm being rude and/or rejecting your advice, but I'm not, I get really confused when I'm in these situations and maybe if you could simplify things for me? I'm only 12,

Don't worry, I'm living under your feet but I understand your confusing.

Gonna try to simplify

And I'm pleased to read your very well written posts as you're only 12 yo.

I didn't know, so forget this article, it's gonna be unhelpful for you.

[Deepsound]

even though the company may be prepared to ship here if you get caught having plants corals or other livestock shipped here or in your possession without proper paperwork and you can face big fines and jailtime.

i mean i could go on ebay and get some killifish eggs shipped to me in a foil packet customs may or may not pick up on it if they did i would expect to be in a lot of trouble

Erk ! I forgot about biosecure !

I thought it only concerned certains species and we can import the others freely.

Sorry :oops:

Well, even without fissidens, you can setup a nice tank Joe.

[Deepsound]

Let's sum up !

You are saying I don't need metal halide

Yep.

Evil_elmo thinks it's a good idea

Yes, it is too.

and Antwan said that one metal halide alone is enough for a 90x45x40cm tank

And he's right.

and Evil_elmo originally said one isn't enough spread fo a tank the size that I want.

It depends on the MH power you choose and the plants too. In fact, it's more rigorous to think with lumens and not watts, but let's simplify ok ?

You got a 180 liters tank. If you want to setup a "nature" planted one, with green carpet, you need about 1w/L. So about 180 w. But, if you use this amount of power, you'll need to feed plants properly, with fertilizer and CO2 or you're gonna have big algae troubles.

Let's sum up another time.

For an heavy "nature" planted tank, you need :

- Rich soil (personally, I use a mix of Aquabasis and Manado).

- 1 w/L

- Fertilizer

- CO2 --> it's a must, a real nutriment for plants.

And you must balance all of this rigorously.

Right ?

Now, what kind of lighting ?

According to me, you don't need a MH for your 90x45x45 tank, considering the kind of plants you choose : java fern, mosses, lilaeopsis can grow even if you don't have 1w / L. They definitly don't need a big amount of light (except if you want an heavy grass of lilaeopsis or eleocharis for instance). So, with the plants you choosed, you can use :

- MH : 70w or 2x70w or 1x150 w

- T5 : 2x39w or 4x39w

You really like Hagen T5HO Life-Glow ?

Go for it (but be sure low cost osram can do the same job)

Don't think there's only one solution.

Many ways are possible to reach the same point.

PS : before making your decision, think about your power bill too

[Jennifer]

....I don't know who's advice to take!

Hang in there Joe. That is the way it is for all of us. We ask advice and judge the advice against our own experiences, the credibility of the source and the feasibility for our own situation. As a result, we each develop our own way of doing things that works for us, and typically if we have spent any time struggling (which we all have), when we find a way that works we then make conclusions about that method and often stick to it like gospel. That doesn't mean that the same setup will work for everyone though. A large part of Luis Moniz's success is because he is talented and has a lot of experience figuring out what works for him. I am sure he could make an equally beautiful tank no matter what lighting he chose. That is why some of us are suggesting to you to start by using inexpensive, lower tech setups because if you can afford them now, you will get to start experimenting right away, and that is the best way to gain the vital experience needed to create stunning tanks, with or without fancy expensive lighting.

You are very lucky to have such good advice offered on this forum. These guys are bringing their experience to you and now you need to weigh it up and decide what way is best for you.

[Joe]

Thanks Jennifer. And thanks SO MUCH Deepsound for simplifying things . I really don't mind going for expensive stuff, because I love my aquariums and that's what I choose to spend my money on . The Hagen T5HO is actually really good-priced at the petshop here (considering they usually rip me off), and they have a special area devoted to it. So I could use 4x Life-Glo. But the metal halide does the job of a couple of these, plus it reflects the rippling movement on the surface into the aquarium, which is a bonus effect. Evil_elmo also said that a single metal halide bulb is cheaper to replace than 4 T5s, and that's another reason that I want it too. Mum's alright with the power bill (I talked to her about it). I asked somewhere on this thread about how much power it will use and it's not to bad.

But, if you use this amount of power, you'll need to feed plants properly, with fertilizer and CO2 or you're gonna have big algae troubles.

I don't mind spending about $60 extra on some good-quality liquid fertiliser (I'd use Flourish Excel and Comprehensive, CO2 isn't a problem, because I find a 3liter juice bottle produces TONNES and it last up to 3 weeks!)

For an heavy "nature" planted tank, you need :

- Rich soil (personally, I use a mix of Aquabasis and Manado).

Aquabasis is quite a good price at Proud Paws in Christchurch, so I can easily afford this. What is the Manado? I've seen it for sale at Organism, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was. Could you please explain it's benifits? I was just wondering though if the light would be sufficient for ground-cover plants, but I probably won't use them. I want to basically copy Luis Moniz's tank and have a layout like his, so that's just mainly ferns and moss, so I will only need a bit of nutrient substrate for Crypts, hairgrass and Cyperus helferi.

Now, another querie. If I use 4x T5HO, I would have a glass lid on my aquarium. If I use Metal Halide and a T5HO combo, I'd have a Rimless setup because of the halide. Is the light penetration better without a lid? Also, the Arcadia unit that I like has 2x T5 fittings, but the lamps it will accomodate are only 55cm. Will the lighting be better if it's the whole length of the tank?

I researched how much watts per litre I'd have if I used the Arcadia unit with the 2x T5HO 55cm Life-Glo, and it was something like nearly 2 watts per liter, so I'd have plenty of light. I read on the ADA site about the lighting, and I'd have my lighting like it suggests on there and have the metal halide going for 8hr/day, and the T5HO for 10hr/day. This is like artificial sunlight, it said on the ADA site.

Just want to say Deepsound, your being a huge help and thanks so much.

[evil_elmo]

wow so much has been posted since the last time i logged in

Hang in there Joe. That is the way it is for all of us. We ask advice and judge the advice against our own experiences, the credibility of the source and the feasibility for our own situation. As a result, we each develop our own way of doing things that works for us, and typically if we have spent any time struggling (which we all have), when we find a way that works we then make conclusions about that method and often stick to it like gospel. That doesn't mean that the same setup will work for everyone though. A large part of Luis Moniz's success is because he is talented and has a lot of experience figuring out what works for him. I am sure he could make an equally beautiful tank no matter what lighting he chose. That is why some of us are suggesting to you to start by using inexpensive, lower tech setups because if you can afford them now, you will get to start experimenting right away, and that is the best way to gain the vital experience needed to create stunning tanks, with or without fancy expensive lighting.

You are very lucky to have such good advice offered on this forum. These guys are bringing their experience to you and now you need to weigh it up and decide what way is best for you.

Jennifer is spot on, everyone has there own experience and techniques that works for them...there are so many factors in each setup that makes each setup different from brands, substrate, co2,liquid ferts, lighting and even fish

alot of these things are trail and error and a basic DIY setup might help you work out what you want

[Deepsound]

Jennifer's right, and especially about this : "That doesn't mean that the same setup will work for everyone though. A large part of Luis Moniz's success is because he is talented and has a lot of experience figuring out what works for him. I am sure he could make an equally beautiful tank no matter what lighting he chose."

That's so true.

When I started, the advices I could get from people on forums are a huge help for me. I can't imagine how it was before internet

So if I could help you Joe, I'm just happy.

About Manado, it's a JBL substrate, looks like rounded granulate grains. There are no nutrients in it (that why I add Aquabasis) but it's porous and neutral in water. With plants like cryptos or echinos, which have strong root system, it works well. They say this substrate is like a battery, storing the excess of nutrients. As I could see in my own tanks, it seems right. As it's rounded, it doesn't hurt fishes like corydoras for instance.

I remember some people on this forum, use it.

So I think you can find it in NZ. And it's not expensive.

[Joe]

Ok. I'll probably go for the Arcadia metal halide still, because:

1) It looks cool.

2) It's similar to the one Luis Moniz used, except it's longer, so can fit slightly longer tubes = more light.

3) I can get it from Hollywood Fish Farm (Mum doesn't want me getting things as big as lightinghoods from overseas. She made that very clear to me!).

4) It has metal halide/T5 combo, so I can do that thing it said on the ADA site and replicate sunlight by turning the halide and T5s on for different lengths of time.

5) It reflects that wave/ripple motion into the aquarium.

6) I can suspend it over the tank, so I won't need to buy a lid for my aquarium.

Now, another querie. If I use 4x T5HO, I would have a glass lid on my aquarium. If I use Metal Halide and a T5HO combo, I'd have a Rimless setup because of the halide. Is the light penetration better without a lid? Also, the Arcadia unit that I like has 2x T5 fittings, but the lamps it will accomodate are only 55cm. Will the lighting be better if it's the whole length of the tank?

Could someone answer this please . It's still bugging me in the back of my head!

[phoenix44]

You don't need to have lids on the tank if you are running the HO units by GLO/Hagen/Fluval.

Will the lighting be better if it's the whole length of the tank?

That depends on how much smaller the lights are. a couple of cm won't make a difference. A couple of feet will.

Is the light penetration better without a lid?

Marginally better. it's not something that should keep you up at night though.

[Joe]

Cool, thanks.

[Joe]

evil_elmo, what do you think of this? It's 90cm long and has 2x metal halide lights, plus 4x T5 tubes and moonlights. AWESOME!

http://aquaria.co.za/shop/index.php?mai ... 820b3afe90

[phoenix44]

That light is about $985 before shipping is even considered.

Joe - Look at lights you CAN get locally.

[Joe]

That light is about $985 before shipping is even considered.

Wow that's quite cheap (I'm not joking either). I thought it would be about double that price. I don't mind paying shipping costs. How much would shipping costs be? I think this lightinghood is like 20x better than the Arcadia one. How would you rate it?

Joe - Look at lights you CAN get locally.

I still want metal halide, and about the best I can get is the Arcadia one, which only has one metal halide bulb, and 2 55cm T5HO tubes. This other one is incredible!

[antwan]

Are you really sure you want to spend so much money on just lighting? This is a 150W metal halide and it cos me $70, you could buy 2, and that's $140. Plenty of light for your tank, and you save about $1000 (after shipping costs on that light you speak of). All you need is someone in the know to make a decent hood and you have a great lighting system.

[supasi]

whats behind the black on the wall ant? LOL

[Joe]

Righty ho. That is... interesting. A bit confusing though. I'm not sure if mum would want me hammering bits of wood onto the wall! I just really like those suspended lightinghoods, especially that really expensive one that I want, because I like T5/metal halide combo. Also I can do that artificial sunlight thing that I read about on the ADA site, where I have the T5s on for most of the day and have the metal halide on for about 8hrs. Also I think that hood looks REALLY COOL too!

[Joe]

I've been thinking, and I'll still get the Arcadia one, because the other one will have to be shipped from overseas and that will cost heaps, and I can get the Arcadia one from Hollywoods. Also I will be saving my money for ages for that other one, but it should only tank about a year to save up for the Arcadia one. But I still think the other one is sooooo cool!

[antwan]

whats behind the black on the wall ant? LOL

It's my L046 tank, no ones allowed to see it 8)