A newbie with a query

[Dawn]

Hi Folks

Just to apprise you of what I have before I get started:-

5 striped tiger barbs and 5 green tiger barbs - small, 3cm or less each.

In an Aqua One AR380 36 litre tank - 36x36x24 cm

Siphon filter with wool, ceramic noodles and sponge

Pink 8000k light tube T8-10watts

55watt heater & thermostat - set to 24C

Plants - 10 Cabomba, 3 Twisted Val, two others unknown names but might be Sumatra Fern 2, Mexican Oak leaf 6.

Medium size piece of driftwood with two small pieces of an unknown fern tied to it.

About 6cm of a mixture of mainly dark small stones

One 'no fishing' ornament

Tank was started 10 July and fish added on the 13th. So far they look healthy and happy, water is clear, tests done this morning were:-

PH 6.8

Nitrite 0.3mg/L

Nitrate 5mg/L

Ammonia 0mg/L

GH 40mg/L (soft)

KH <20mg/L

Am I right in thinking the only one I need to worry about is the KH (carbonate hardness)? The test manual says I should adjust with an appropriate buffer, if needed.

According to one of the many books I've been reading lately Tiger Barbs like soft water slightly acid which is what it seems to be.

Do I need to use a buffer and if so what would that be?

From reading various other posts it seems the light tube is not enough wattage, should I up it to 18 watts or more? The plants are looking healthy enough but it's early days yet. The tops of the cabomba are starting to lighten in colour but it's growing fairly rapidly, have had to prune it already. Do I have too many plants?

Another query about the filter. I have the wool on the bottom, the ceramic noodles next and the sponge on top - do I have them the right way around or doesn't it really matter? I know I don't clean the noodles but is it okay to clean the wool and sponge in water from the tap or should I use tank water? I've just cleaned the sponge in tap water as it had nasty brown blobs all over it - from the driftwood I suppose? I did get the driftwood from the fish shop but I believe they leach out stuff anyway. Have I stuffed up the bacteria now?

I haven't done a water change yet as I was told to leave it for two or more weeks, don't want to fix what isn't broken!

Any and all comments most welcome.

[Warren]

Hi Dawn & Welcome,

I'd leave everything alone. The biggest problem most people who are new to keeping fish have it changing things.

I'd leave the light as-is for now to see if the plants are ok with it. A stronger light will have a tendancy to create algae. Because the tank is quite shallow the lamp you have just might do the job. It is also rich in the colours that are good for plants (red and blue - hence the pink colour).

As for the KH, I wouldn't worry either. If you do regular water changes (30-40% every 2 weeks) you will replace the KH with the new water. You will end up with an average equilibrium somewhere below 20mg/L. As long as the pH stays fairly stable all should be ok.

[Ira]

I'm not sure how to convert MG/L into PPM like I'm used to but...The only thing I'd keep an eye on if I were you is the nitrate and nitrite, but given time the nitrite should sort itself out once the tank cycles. The PH looks good. Hardness really isn't something you need to worry about. Most fish will be happy in any kind of reasonable hardness from soft to hard and since you say you're an amateur with (I think) reasonably tough fish it's not going to make a big enough difference to worry about.

As for the light, the plants should do ok and grow slowly, but they would be happier with more light.

[Dawn]

Because the tank is quite shallow the lamp you have just might do the job.

As for the KH, I wouldn't worry either. If you do regular water changes (30-40% every 2 weeks) you will replace the KH with the new water. You will end up with an average equilibrium somewhere below 20mg/L. As long as the pH stays fairly stable all should be ok.

[Dawn]

I'm not sure how to convert MG/L into PPM like I'm used to but...

[Ira]

Yeah, 30-40% every 2 weeks would be better than 20% every week. Though, I'd do at least 30% weekly. My 3 tanks I've actually been doing 50% biweekly changes on two of them and about 25% biweekly on the third.

[Caryl]

I rarely get around to doing any water changes at all.

You have the filter media around the right way. When I clean mine (almost as rarely as my water changes :oops: ) I rinse the 'noodles', as you call them, briefly under the tap although everyone says you SHOULD USE TANK WATER! It depends on what sort of water you have in your supply. We are lucky and don't have chlorine in ours though we now have lime to raise the pH to 7.0. I have 4 sections. The bottom media is filter wool which I rinse briefly and re-use once or twice before replacing. The other sections have Siporax which I rotate through the levels. The filter also has two sponges which also get a quick rinse and get put back the opposite way from what they were before. Too much cleaning and you destroy all the good bacteria which has built up.

There will probably be lots of posts growling at me now

[Derek]

It's not absolutely correct but the easiest way to covert mg/L to ppm is to multiply by 1

[Warren]

As Derek says, multiply by 1.

mg/L is PPM.

ie 1mg per Liter = 1g per 1000L = 1kg per 1000000L

Since 1000000L of pure water = 1000000kg (hope I got all the 0's right) 1kg of stuff dissolved in 1000000kg of water is 1ppm (one part per million).

[Warren]

Hi Dawn,

Re your tank depth. 36cm or 360mm is not very deep for a tank. 45cm+ is where light intensity starts to become more important.

[Dawn]

ie 1mg per Liter = 1g per 1000L = 1kg per 1000000L

[Caryl]

Tannin leaching from driftwood does not harm the fish at all. Some of them like it as it cuts down on visibility. I would let the tank continue to cycle a bit longer before doing a water change.

[Dawn]

Tannin leaching from driftwood does not harm the fish at all. Some of them like it as it cuts down on visibility. I would let the tank continue to cycle a bit longer before doing a water change.

Thanks Caryl. Unfortunately today the PH has taken a big drop, from 6.6 to 6.8 (I can NEVER tell the difference between these two shades on the chart) yesterday to 6.0 today. Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate test readings are fine so I'm about to read up on what I should do now - unless somewhere here can give me some advice?

Actually both tanks (goldfish & tropicals) PH has dropped to 6.0, yesterday and today's tests were done at the same time of the day, around 9.30am.

[Caryl]

Do another pH test this afternoon and see what the reading is then.

[Dawn]

Do another pH test this afternoon and see what the reading is then.

Thanks Caryl. At 3:30pm the PH was 6.0 or 6.2 at a pinch, certainly no higher. It's a big drop from 6.6-6.8 yesterday? Both tanks are the same, it's strange.

Re goldfish tank: Will it be okay for me to not do anything and do my 20% water change tomorrow morning in the hopes that will fix it? Or should I add some PH up tonight? Or change the water straight away?

Re barbs tank: I was going to leave it another week (3 weeks since start of tank) before changing the water, should I perhaps add some PH up?

Decisions, decisions....

[Pegasus]

Hi,

I hate disagreeing with posts, but this is a BOLD statement you made Caryl,

Tannin leaching from driftwood does not harm the fish at all.

Perhaps the "Tannin" may not affect the fish, but the pH level will, and a drop from pH7 to pH6 is quite drastic over such a short period. This "Tannin" could be "Tannic Acid" that is causing the rapid change in your levels.

Alkalinity is a measure of the buffering capacity of water. Because pH is a logarithmic function, a change in pH from 6.0 to 7.0 would represent a ten-fold decrease in the hydrogen ion concentration; 6.0 to 8.0 would be a 100-fold decrease. In other terms a pH of 6.0 is 100 times more acidic than a pH of 8.0.

Properly buffered water has a 120 to 240 parts per million (ppm) total alkalinity reading.

For most species of fish, the pH in a freshwater aquarium should be between 6.5 and 7.8. At pH levels below 6.5, the growth and survival of nitrifying bacteria becomes reduced and could possibly cease altogether

If pH levels below 6.5 are to be used like for breeding a certain type of fish, then frequent water changes are vital to prevent the accumulation of nitrogenous wastes (ammonia).

Sorry if this makes things even more confusing for you Dawn, but the old warning still applies.

"Any changes you make in pH should be done VERY gradually" as a rapid change can CERTAINLY cause problems.

Water changes??

Well, it's just my opinion, but three weeks with a new setup in a tank that COULD be slightly overstocked would certainly need SOME water changes over that period.

Any changes, again in my opinion, should not be TOO large so that they will upset the balance of your tank, but 20% would not cause an inbalance, again IMHO.

Bill.

[Derek]

Hi Dawn,

I would just start doing regular 20% weekly water changes and see where the pH levels off at. It should end up higher than present.

Your original post suggests that your tank has probably cycled allready.

PH 6.8

Nitrite 0.3mg/L

Nitrate 5mg/L

Ammonia 0mg/L

GH 40mg/L (soft)

KH <20mg/L

This shows you have no ammonia, a little nitrite and are starting to see nitrate. Therefore all the ammonia is being converted to nitrite and a proportion of that is now being converted to nitrate. By now there is a good chance that all your nitrite is being converted to nitrate. A natural and unavoidable consequence of this process is that your pH will drop, as you have discovered. This is also being aided by organic acids leaching from the wood. They are not toxic, so don't get worried about them in that sense

If water changes do not help then I would try adding baking soda rather than pH up. pH up will help the pH problem but you run the risk of suffering algae problems. It will also make your KH test meaningless.

Warren has covered how to add baking soda in another post under the thread "KH tester".

What does intrigue me is that both of your tanks have had a drop of equal proportions in the same time frame. Has anything else changed that might have contributed to this?

At the end of the day you have had a drop in pH of 0.8 at the very most over at least an 18hr period. This is not a "sudden" drop. It has occured gradually over a period of time. The fact that your fish all appear happy suggests that problems with ammonia poisioning or acidosis are not an issue. On top of that the pH has remained stable at 6.0 from 9:30 this morning so it appears that a new equalibrium may have established itself.

Don't panic or worry to much about it. Just take slow steady steps to address the issue and continue to monitor the pH.

[Dawn]

Thanks so much for the advice guys - I'm starting to understand what 'cycling' and all the other things associated with it means now.

I will not panic and tomorrow morning will do a 20% water change on both tanks. And Derek no I can't think of anything that has changed for BOTH tanks to have gone down together like that, it's strange.

All the fish seem to be okay except for my week old oranda, Prince Charming, who has been very slow and lethargic since yesterday. He is eating if you can call one mouthful eating! Perhaps this is an oranda trait I don't know but he's just not as active as the rest of them. I believe they have problems with food getting stuck in their swim bladders, does that sound right? Something like that anyway.

I've put him into my once empty goldfish bowl (about 10 litres) with an under gravel filter and a bubbler and a tablespoon of rock salt (which is a weak solution I think) - let's see what he's like in the morning - is it okay to leave them in the salt water for a few days or should it be only hours or overnight?

Should I starve him for a few days and if he's still alive start giving him something like lettuce or peas?

Oh gawd I'm beginning to wonder if I'm cut out to be a goldfish mother! I feel a bout of paranoia coming on.....

[Ira]

I'd have left him in the main tank and added the salt to it. It's not going to hurt any of the other fish and if he's not doing well the extra stress of moving him isn't going to help. Hmmm, 1 tablespoon per 10 liters...That's pretty strong. The normal dosage for salt for medical reasons in a tank is one tablespoon per 5-10 gallons. Which would be about 1 per 20-40 liters. You're at twice that.

[Dawn]

I'd have left him in the main tank and added the salt to it. It's not going to hurt any of the other fish and if he's not doing well the extra stress of moving him isn't going to help. Hmmm, 1 tablespoon per 10 liters...That's pretty strong. The normal dosage for salt for medical reasons in a tank is one tablespoon per 5-10 gallons. Which would be about 1 per 20-40 liters. You're at twice that.

Thanks Ira. I thought he might start getting picked on and also there were four males chasing a female around for hours on end and I thought he might get in the way of that too so that's why I shifted him.

The book I read said 'one tablespoon per gallon' was a WEAK solution so I halved that yet again - now you tell me it's too strong. Okay I will replace some of the water and hopefully that won't stress him out even more. He did eat a few spirulina flakes this morning but he's still much the same - at least he's alive!

[Ira]

Hmmm, maybe it said teaspoon per gallon? That would be equivalent to about 1 tablespoon per 4ish gallons. Could have been talking about something like a salt dip too. Or I'm completely wrong, that happens *Cough* occasionally.

[Dawn]

Hmmm, maybe it said teaspoon per gallon? That would be equivalent to about 1 tablespoon per 4ish gallons. Could have been talking about something like a salt dip too. Or I'm completely wrong, that happens *Cough* occasionally.

Wrong? No surely not - I never own up to be wrong, oh now hang on there was that one time back in 1963.... :lol:

No it definately said 'tablespoon' - another book I read today said '3 tablespoons per gallon' - so it seems everyone differs.

I changed half of the water today and he has eaten a little although he completely missed the two mosquito wigglers, I expect we'll have mozzies tomorrow now! He went right up to one and said 'hello how do you do' and kept on swimming! So he's still alive, looking promising.

How long does the salt stay in the water? Does that make it salty forever or does it eventually disappear? I ask this because today's book said to add more salt the next day!

[Pegasus]

Hi Dawn,

You were mentioning this earlier,

I believe they have problems with food getting stuck in their swim bladders, does that sound right? Something like that anyway.

I was reading an article on Cichlids and came across this. It seems to be related to your symptoms.

He recovered fully from this experience only to get some weird form of 'bloat' caused by a blockage of undigested cichlid pellets somewhere in his digestive tract. The symptoms included a swollen belly region due to a build of of gas and a loss of equilibrium and the ability to maintain upright buoyancy. So he lay on the surface wavering like a leaf. I removed him, and using a wetted finger, gently massaged the belly and there was a loud 'pop' and the blockage and gas was expelled.

What sort of food are you giving them ?

Bill.

[Ira]

The salt stays in there forever, Dawn. The only way to get it out is to replace it with fresh water. Well, ignoring doing things like reverse osmosis and other things that are a lot more complicated.

[Dawn]

Ira, you weren't wrong about the amount of salt after all. While at the fish farm today I had a look at the aquarium salt packet and it said '1 teaspoon per gallon' - so your reputation is still good.

So if the salt stays in the water forever how long do I leave him in it?

He's still his same lethargic self but is managing to eat a mouthful or two. In fact I think he's either lazy or rather backward as he'll take the food if I put it right in front of his eyes but only one mouthful at a time - after that he doesn't bother going to the bottom to look for the rest. Don't tell me I'm going to have to hand feed him twice a day!!

Bill - thanks for the article on the cichlids. I don't think Prince Charming is bloated or anything, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps he was starving as he wasn't quick enough to get the food when he was in the big tank. I have him by himself now so we'll see what happens. Today I fed him thawed frozen bloodworms which he seemed to enjoy but he completely ignores all the ones that have fallen to the bottom of the tank! Perhaps he really thinks he is royalty....

I think it's just a matter of wait and see now, I think I've done everything I can.