Fay Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 So true I guess there is only one way to learn, as long as we all care and take care and try our best. The way the reefs are going we may hold history in our tanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBlog Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Fay, I am sorry to hear that your LFS is less than helpful in terms of advice. Given the turn of this thread, I just want to point out that the guys at Organisms are more than helpful when it comes to choosing the coral/fish for individual’s tanks. We did in fact discuss the possible difficulty of keeping the Elegance, but I decided to go ahead anyway. I have learned from my mistake and won't make the same in the future. Now on to a question about my "doomed" elegance, I don't have a recent picture of it, but it certainly looks worse than the picture Fay posted of hers. Since it has been said that they "almost" never come back, is there anything that I should be doing to give it the best chance? It initially did the puffy business that Pies referred to. Now, the tentacle extension is very short and when the polyp retracts (75% of the time), the tissue recedes very far into the skeleton to the point where the ribs of the skeleton are visible in some areas. I’ve already tried moving it to a shadier region and less flow, but no improvement. It has never eaten anything offered, i.e. small bits of mussel, Brine, Mysis, etc... Is it beyond hope at this stage and time to humanely euthanatize it to avoid contamination of my tank? It has gotten this brown slime on it from the very start that I’ve been removing with a large syringe. This can't possibly be the tissue rotting away can it since it has done this since day one? I’m pretty sure that I’ve read somewhere that this jelly stuff is NOT good for your corals/tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 I can keep almost every coral/fish that come in and that is because I have spent years gaining experience. If anyone is going to get them in the future I would get some reef solution and see if we get more people that have success with these coral. Gonna jump on this one sorry Alois. Maybee you should email Eric Bourneman and tell him the problem with the mass death of almost every imported catiphillia coral can be solved with some reef soultion. No amount of Reef Soultion is going save these corals. To continue with my same quote. Alois, you can keep most coral/fish? I don't belive this but that aside, you have said that your tank owes you over $60,000.00, probably more. If you and your tank can't keep em alive what chance to the rest of us have? Sorry to jump on you Al, but your talking a bunch of woddle there. I agree with the fact that we should be able to try fish/croal thats hard, but there is hard and there is doomed. Like I stated before, they are not allowed into Europe because of there poor survival rates. As for reefs suffering from far worse than 'ornimental fish trade', I agree with this to a degree. But I have dived in several places in Malysia and Thiland first hand where fish and coral are caught and some of it is very sick. Don't so niaeve (ni eve) to think that its not doing some damage, because you are. All the worse when you are distroying nature to take something you know has less than a 10% chance of survival once its reached it destination. Here is a challenge for the shops/importers: I will let you test my water / routine etc before I buy a coral or fish from you. You are free to test any time from that point on, we need to be confident my tank condidtions aren't going to be at fault. When I buy a fish/coral you will go into an agreement with me. If it survives I will agree to pay again what it cost me (thanks for ensuring its survival), if it dies, you will refund my money and replace it until I get one that lives. If a system like this was in place lets see how many catiphillias or cleaner wrasses come in or a for sale. I have never done it, but I wounder what the consumer garantees act would have to say about selling a consumer something with a 10% or less survival rate? If I sold cars and only 1 in 10 worked i'd be on Fairgo/Target in an instant. Infact if I sold cat or dogs and only 1 in 10 survived i'd be in hot water. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 I agree with the 'can of worms' statement. I don't keep marines but have discus instead. Most people think they are hard to keep but for me they are not. I've only lost 2-3 discus out of 50+ in the last 10 years (other than the ones who died of old age - 2 jumped out (I now use covers) and 1 just wasted away, don't know why). However, I've yet to breed anything decent. I have not trouble getting fry, but getting them to grow like other people do is proving to be a mission. All fish and corals will behave completely different depending on the situation. Something one person finds impossible to keep is easy for someone else. I don't know why, it's just the way it seems to be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 If it survives I will agree to pay again what it cost me (thanks for ensuring its survival), if it dies, you will refund my money and replace it until I get one that lives. That's a great idea. Make the stores do that and all you'll be able to buy is fake plants and little bubbling treasure chests. I don't think it's the LFS's problem if it dies because you can't take care of it. That's YOUR responsibility. Should Ford make sure you can drive a V8 without crashing before selling you a Falcon? No, it's your responsibility. They can tell you it's hard, but if you choose to buy it why should they replace it when you kill it? But, yes, I agree, they shouldn't bring in anything that has a very low chance of survival. Of course, that's also why a lot of people complain about not being able to get a lot of SPS I think. Because most people don't have the equipment for them and they die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_from_nz Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 dan from nz well what do you think now I think it's total irresponsible I'm kinda still on the fence here, i don't blame the importer, or the retailer for the following reason (although a slight tangent) I've always believed business is a game... and if you want to play the game, you'd better learn the rules. Whats more, you'd better learn them from someone who's succeeded at the game. not from the scoorekeepers (accountants), the rule makers (lawers), the spectators (employees), the money holders & collectors (bakers) and definatly not from other 'D'grade players (business opwners who are just getting by or even failing) I make this connection because nomatter what the request (or how stern) a retailer is going to sell somthing given the chance hell the first rule in business is "never turn you back on a buck" However i still agree that it is irresponsable, but why should the experienced reefers miss out on this coral because of everyone else? I agree that there needs to be some regulation, but at the same time excess polutants in the ocean killing reefs, maybe it is still important to get these corals into peoples tanks, as it may be the only hope of anyone ever getting to enjoy the hobby. I think regulation is required, but hate authority and the whole "some people can't keep it so say no to everyone" attitude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Just remember that the problem with a elegeance coral is not the target tank, its a problem with the coral itself. There are theorys about what causes it, but the bottom line is they die, and nothing, no amount of Reef Complete or tank conditions are going to help. I agree, bring in EVERYthing and let people take their chances. HOWEVER bringing in diseased/damaged stock is wrong, and unfortunitaly these corals fall into this category. IRAL That's a great idea. Make the stores do that and all you'll be able to buy is fake plants and little bubbling treasure chests. I don't think it's the LFS's problem if it dies because you can't take care of it. That's YOUR responsibility. Should Ford make sure you can drive a V8 without crashing before selling you a Falcon? No, it's your responsibility. They can tell you it's hard, but if you choose to buy it why should they replace it when you kill it? Read what I wrote. I am happy for them to inspect my tank and paramaters prior to purchaing the corals, ensuring everything is A-OK before hand (there are stores overseas that demand to site a tank and test it prior to selling stock to a customer). It is pathetic to think just because it dies its the fault of the tank it dies in. I would concede that this is problably the most likley cause, however in the case of the cataplilla it is dieing based on the condition it was sold to me in. So just because it dies in my tank its my fault, I don't accept that (particulary in the case of this coral). Personally I would rather see plastic plants and bubble chests that dieing corals and fish that have a 1 in 10 chance of survival past 6 weeks. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_from_nz Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 the sea horse farm in napier is very strict on their terms of sale you have to have a set up tank for a certian number of weeks etc i wish there were more lfs that opperated like this, but the question is would they turn a profit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Dan - Thats the whole point I guess The dollar drives these people, nothing more. If they can sell it, they will, and if it dies, hey sell them something else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_from_nz Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 yeah it may wreck our ecosystem but hey at least they made a buck it sort of comes down to the old argument the business model we have set up is wrong, when it comes down to lfs and reef, this site really replaces the lfs (but still doesn't help the industry grow) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 your tank owes you over $60,000.00, It keeps going up Mark every time you write a post, when will it reach $100k plus by Christmas. Tell me please. Eric Bourneman and tell him the problem with the mass death of almost every imported catiphillia coral You should read the book correctly. He says that majority of them die due to unknown reasons, but thinks one of the reasons could be how they are collected, handled. So far about 15 Cataphyllias have been imported. I am aware of 4 are still going. Maybe you should add some value to the Hobby and try to find out why they died, and help us pin point the problem. So far I am aware that some hobbyist have had nitrates over 25ppm, some have put them under metal halides, some have not put them on the sand bed as they come from such areas and are not subject to high light. Etc. Maybe this is the reason they are dying. Come on Mark do something for the Hobby. Instead of always criticising the importers and shops. How many copperbands have arrived? I would say about 100 plus, how many are alive?? Not many. Maybe 2-3. So in terms of percentage the copperbands deaths are far higher. So MARK give a list of all fish and coral that should be banned and I will make submission to take them off the allowed list for you. This way will only bring in coral beauties and one or two coral. I think the point is, its all relative. Basically the whole industry should be looked at and maybe closed down as losses are high all round. More coral fish die than Cataphyllias but I don’t see you jumping up and down about all the other coral/fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Many corals die once they leave the shops and most die due to the irresponsible hobbyist for trying to save money by buying cheap equipment or making diy equipment that does not work. Yeah, right. Think about the wording... where do most people buy there cheap shoddy equipment and corals....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 I would get some reef solution does anyone know who imports this stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 my copperband is doing fine at the moment, sometimes I worry that he does not eat much of the food I add.... but he is constantly picking off rocks, and i have no featherdusters or aptasia at all. An friend from India who has collected lots of butterfly fish, and other picky eaters from the wild, reckons he looks fine at the moment. But you never know, I have had it 3 months. I think I am past the danger zone tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Quote: your tank owes you over $60,000.00, It keeps going up Mark every time you write a post, when will it reach $100k plus by Christmas. Tell me please. Thats a number you told me, I didn't make it up came straight from you. You told me you had taken insurance out for your tank for 60k, if thats untrue its you not remeber what you told me (lie) not me making it up. As for it going up everytime I write a post? Find me another post where I mention the cost of your tank. As for 15 cataphillas being imported, I know you have brought in more than that. Hell i've killed one myself (check the posts on this site, and photos). Infact I have unpacked more catiphillas than 15 myself at your own facility. Massive big ones and small ones. 15 have been imported, its A LOT more than that, have seen it myself. Jumping up and down. I am not jumping up and down, you seem to be the one whos all agitated and getting all catty. The only point I am trying to get accross is that this particular coral (catiphilla) is mostly doomed and its doomed long before it gets into any of our own tanks. Its documented, phototgraphed and curretly being studied. As for reading the book. The book is old, the information on Erics forums on RC are much newer and present far more information. I can read correctly and thought that people who didn't know about the problems with this species should find out whats happening with them. As for me writing a list about what should be banned and what shouldn't. Well personally I think the only things that should exist on a 'banned list' is something with a less than 10% chance of survival. So if that means 100 copper bands have been brought in and only 3 are alive, then yes, BAN THEM. I know this isn't good for your business so its obvious why you have a different point of view. Maybe you should add some value to the Hobby and try to find out why they died, and help us pin point the problem. This is what I am trying to do, if you would stop bitching and stop and read the information I am posting you would understand where I am comming from. Read the Eric Boruneman Catiphillia Project on RC. I can assure everyone there is more information there than 'add reef complete' (do you sell Reef Complete by any chance Alois?). Remember I have no commercial interest in any of this. Ultimatly I am one of your customers, maybee your should listen to what I am saying insted of poking me and everyone else with a stick. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Acropora were in the same camp but until I started to educate hobbyist that you need good equipment more hobbyist are keeping them. Can you provide more detail as to what "good equipment" is needed to keep Acropora? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 To clear up one point the photo I posted was not my coral, I posted that for Chris who started this topic. My Elegance coral was bought and died from a much earlier shipment about 8 to 10 months ago. It died within a week so like Pies said it was most certainly already on its fatal decline when a got it and not a lot I could have done. Still waiting to hear from Chris on how his coral is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fay Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 Alois can you please post a photo of your Elegance coral Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_kerryn Posted November 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 I pulled the coral out about 8 days ago. It seemed like it was still alive as it contracted when I pullede it out. I tested the water and the ammonia had started to rise so I bit the bullet and pulled it. I was in hollywoods the other day and saw one that was more bloated than mine and its tenticles were barely sticking out. It looked worse than my one, but I'm no expert. I talked to the place where I brought it and they did not really think any thing was wrong with it how I described it. I had discussed my tank with them on a couple of occasions before I brought it. they did recommend against some corals but not this one. my nitirites and ammonia rose again slightly to about 0.2 so I have just decided to leave it for a few weeks before adding anything else. How long would it need to be steady at zero before adding anything? Can the excessive amount of algae I have be causing any damage to the water quality? I have read that this can cause oxygen problems aswell as having a tight fitting lid and powerheads in the tank. Are there tests for oxygen levels. I have good circulation with the a power head and also the skimmer outlet runs back through the trickle filter with an overflow dropping back into the tank. It seems ok to me. Also, with the trickle filter, I know to change the cotton filter strip every week and I leave the bacteria noddles to grow, but there are two thin filter beds with the plastic balls etc in the middle (same as on scrubbers for chemical wastewater filters). Does this need to be flushed every week or left to grow as with the noddles? I cant remember if I was supposed to be flushing this part. could be part of the problem if I am supposed to flush it. Thanks Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petplanet Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 I always favour leaving them in till ALL life is gone. You never know what you will get. If I had thrown my Pearl Bubble out when I thought it was dead I wouldn't have ten of them now. Same with a large hammer coral, started dying straight away. Flesh remnants on the sides have grown into about six very small hammer corals. Plate coral died of to one lone polyp. Three years later thirty plus polyps. As for the copperbanded, grow the food they eat. If they eat aptasia sweet. What could be easier to grow. Don't even need a light 9but it helps). Small tank, rocks, food and a mushed up aptasia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 was you plate coral ok on import? Mine is going from strength to strength... I can almost see it growing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RnB Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Is this the coral in question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Thats it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petplanet Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Yeah, it was great, just to large in my opinion. I had no way of anchoring it with out flesh touching other rocks and I moved house to many times so it took a beating, but hey, it has a great base now. I looked in one of my books (The Reef Aquarium Vol.1 - great book) and they rate elegance corals as a great coral for beginners and easy to keep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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