alanmin4304 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Taking precautions to try to prevent unwanted diseases and critters from entering the country makes sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Taking precautions to try to prevent unwanted diseases and critters from entering the country makes sense to me. i dont think anyone would argue with that my point is that once they arrive, especially if they are on the CITES list, we have a moral responsibility not to just kill them because its the easiest / cheapest thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 AFAIK some species on CITIES lists are endangered or threatened in their homeland but are numerous in zoos and private collections this is how they justify destroying some and not others if a country signs up to CITIES they are legally obligated to return a red list species to the country which it is native to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I agree but there are problems. Who is going to provide and pay for the quarantine facility? Many countries don't want these animals returned because of the risk of diseases. In this case would you send them back to South Africa or Asia (and if so which country) I agree it is a waste of a perfectly good and innocent animal but to save them would cost megabucks and unfortunately most Countries are run by accountants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I agree but there are problems. Who is going to provide and pay for the quarantine facility? Many countries don't want these animals returned because of the risk of diseases. In this case would you send them back to South Africa or Asia (and if so which country) I agree it is a waste of a perfectly good and innocent animal but to save them would cost megabucks and unfortunately most Countries are run by accountants. Alanmin4304, I dont understand where you get this "megabucks cost" from ? Can you elaborate on your sources ? We have already established that Taronga zoo (on behalf of australian biosecurity), runs a quarantine facility for the purposes of evaluating unauthorised arrivals - so that is there anyway (and therefore being funded). The suggestion is that illegal imports are sent back to origin as a penalty against the airline that carried them incorrectly in the first place - again there is only a paper cost involved here, no money would necessarily be involved. If they were sent to an alternative / more appropriate destination then fair enough. It was further suggested that the SPCA (in this case) might be involved with local repatriation. Im not convinced the numbers of returned animals would be so great as to cause a huge burden on such resources, but even if there was cost involved this could/should be met (in part if not in full) by fines levied against the person who brought the animal in illegally in the first place. - In this instance the person was identified and fined so I see no reason why that fine could not be directed to relevant resources accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 it costs A LOT of money to shift animals around the globe. You can't ship em - they have to go on aeroplanes. so with snakes im guessing you would have to arrange safe premises, keep the tree huggers happy about how the snake was transported, then once it reaches back "home" quarantine over there to test for stuff can take upto 6 months. it could be a carrier of something. chances are remote but all ecosystems are fragile. so you gotta pay for the container, insurance, freight, quarantine facilities and then the lab results. then who would really pay for it? the country that deports the snake or the country receiving the snake? some countries have other problems - imagine how upset you could feel if you saw children starving on the streets and you then knew that the same money that could have gone to help them has instead gone to send 1 snake all over the world. (the use of the word "you" is not directed at any one at all, its just i didn't know how else to form the sentence. :lol: ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 some good points aquatopia, you should put them to your local MP there are many hidden costs when you deal with govt departments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 If it costs thousands of dollars to get disease analysis carried out on imported fish how would it be cheaper on reptiles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 If it costs thousands of dollars to get disease analysis carried out on imported fish how would it be cheaper on reptiles? Again, all you are saying is "thousands". Do you actually know exactly what it costs ? I understand from Redwood Aquatics that they are charged $1600 to have their imported fish checked. This is for a whole shipment and this thread is dicussing only two snakes. Also, as I have tried to explain, there is a difference between charging a commercial fee for a service by a government department, as opposed to the actual cost of doing that. When one government department does something for another government department they would not be charging each other in the same way they would charge someone for a commercial service. My other point is that the "thousands" it costs would be offset by the "thousands" that the perpetrator of this offence was fined !!! Importing an animal illegally carries a fine (if i remember rightly from the program) of up to $20,000. I cannot in my wildest imagination think it would cost $20,000 to repatriate a couple of snakes. In fact I would bet my left one on the fact it would not cost that much. Personally I think some people just like to put obstacles in the way of something by taking a pessimistic defeatest attitude. phoenix44 - i know they have to fly but as i said - its an airlines responsibility to ensure they are carrying what a declaration states - in this case they were not and therefore they should be made to take it back at no cost (they do it with passengers after all, if they do not arrive somewhere with valid paperwork) Even if there was a charge to take the snakes back then this would be paid for by the fine levied on the offender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Hi Aquatopia, You are forgetting the other fees that are involved for a fish check like clerking in by the vet and or maf represenative @ an hourly rate the weekly visits if there is disease @ hourly rate the keeping of all dead fish in individual dated and timed bags in a freezer that can not be used for anything else 2 cost of freezer + cost to run + cost of fish + cost of bag + cost of exam@ hourly rate. You also forget the cost of the fish to get here in the first place and then their upkeep and that if more than a certain % of the tank/shipment dies then MAf takes the whole lot to Massy for investigation at your cost...last time ....I understand it cost redwood nearly 10 times the amout you are stating so it is swings and round abouts Navarre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Hi Aquatopia, You are forgetting the other fees that are involved for a fish check like clerking in by the vet and or maf represenative @ an hourly rate the weekly visits if there is disease @ hourly rate the keeping of all dead fish in individual dated and timed bags in a freezer that can not be used for anything else 2 cost of freezer + cost to run + cost of fish + cost of bag + cost of exam@ hourly rate. You also forget the cost of the fish to get here in the first place and then their upkeep and that if more than a certain % of the tank/shipment dies then MAf takes the whole lot to Massy for investigation at your cost...last time ....I understand it cost redwood nearly 10 times the amout you are stating so it is swings and round abouts Navarre Nav, have you read the rest of this thread from the beginning ? That is not what we are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 I have read this thread because as you may not be aware I petioned MAF early this year to import some reptiles. So the legal or otherwise import of any herpts interests me. You made a statement about costs in a post. I was not undermining either post or thread just stating that 1600 which is the figure you quoted was a once off and there are lots of costs involved and that they are sometimes variable to each shipment. On top of that we are lucky enough to have a lovely GST law which states that if anything that comes into the country has a potential retail value then GST has to be paid on the "projected" worth of an animal. So for example if you were to import say Whites Tree Frogs and they could possibly retail for 1500 but in each spawn you could have 100 live babies then you MIGHT have to pay the GST on that because that is the intrinsic value of that one animal. Or you might get a good MAF guy at livestock and when you say ohhh but this animal was a gift and here is the letter they MIGHT say oh well thats fine but its worth only 1500 so just pay the GST on that eh. Never mind the quarantine cost, or the buliding of a facility transport etc etc etc My comments were about figures quoted...you asked where the thousands came from and did anyone know actual costs. I know the actual costs so I know where the thousands come from. If it was as easy as it sounds there would be more than one wholesaler/retailer in NZ and more than just a couple of importers full stop. When I started in fish there were 4-5 people in Christchurch alone who imported there own fish. Now there is one. Economics is the major reason behind it. Let alone the physical and emotional involvement Just trying to answer your question. Sorry about the lecture Navarre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Nav thats not what this thread is about though. Its about repatriating illegally imported animals. Thanks anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 The $1600 cost you quote from Redwood Aquatics is a one off cost for testing one species of fish for a disease. They and other importers have had greater costs, fish destroyed and complete shipments threatened with being destroyed because of diseases found. I chaired the meeting between Maf and the importers which resulted in the establishment of the present regime for the importation of tropical fish and I was the last person to import goldfish into the South Island before thir importation was stopped. I know a little about the reqirements and costs of Quarantine. Returning to the snakes in question: Where they native to Australia or an Asian Country, and if so which country would they be sent back to? Would that country accept them? Where they a hybrid and not native to any country? What diseases could they carry and therefore would need to be tested for? What is the incubation time for these disease and therefore the minimum Quarantine period? It is very difficult to tell if reptiles are carrying a simple disease like salmonella so it is realy hard to be sure they are disease free and it is therefore often better to destroy them than take the risk. It is a waste of a couple of very nice reptiles but it could be a waste of a whole lot more if they introduced a virilent disease to the native population. Accountants-1, caring reptile lovers-0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Accountants-1, caring reptile lovers-0 more like Accountants-1,ooo, caring reptile lovers-0 sadly in todays world most things get broken down to cost as everything has a cost attached no matter how altruistic the motive the issue of cost was raised and nav answered from his experience and point of view and alanmin from his there are many factors in the equation of destroying the animals, the first as alan has said is to ensure they are in fact a rare species not a hybrid as an animal lover it is sad to see this happen but when you look at it from the other side things are different the fine on the smuggler should reflect the repatriation costs as well being fined 10 - 30% of the possible profit on the smuggled animals might make it attractive to some people sad the world we live in and some of the humans who make up the general population Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 AFAIK some species on CITIES lists are endangered or threatened in their homeland but are numerous in zoos and private collections Bingo, CITES only takes wild populations into consideration, which is why asian arowanas are still CITES 1 despite being bred in their millions for the aquarium hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navarre Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 sadly in todays world most things get broken down to cost as everything has a cost attached no matter how altruistic the motive there are many factors in the equation of destroying the animals, the first as alan has said is to ensure they are in fact a rare species not a hybrid as an animal lover it is sad to see this happen but when you look at it from the other side things are different sad the world we live in and some of the humans who make up the general population Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I still don't see why these costs, whatever they may be, cannot be paid by the fine imposed ? Still, Im not going to get stressed over caring about something over which I have no control. :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon1990 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Still, Im not going to get stressed over caring about something over which I have no control. :evil: Too late :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 done a lot of living and have seen been sides of life navarre i still have my passion but it has been tempered by the rules we have to live under if one feels strongly enough about something you can achieve it even if you just tap a piece of steel for long enough to alter its structure you can break it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Too late :roll: Too late for what ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repto Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 for those 2 snakes I imagine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquatopia Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 for those 2 snakes I imagine? sadly you are right on that score. and they were in the peak of health from appearances at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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