Worms?

[Ira]

I know Pegasus, you're going to say, "I told you so!" But, my female bristlenose has a thin, translucent string coming out of her...Well, poop chute...I thought at first it was just a funny colored poop, but it SEEMS to maybe be wiggling, but I can't say for sure if it is or not. It might just be the currents. But I now have her in my little hospital tank and I've put the Blue back where she was(She looks totally recovered by the way). Now, if it IS some kind of worm, how would I treat that? How do I confirm it? Would putting a fragment of something like a dog and cat worming tablet in the tank work?

[Caryl]

I have another trusty book called Handbook of Fish Diseases put out by TFH. From what I have read, I don't think your fish has worms. If it did, they would be red or brown and hanging 5 - 10mm out of the anus. Little white worms 1mm or smaller doesn't sound like your description either.

How long is the bit hanging out? Is it poo or a long slimey thread?

[Ira]

If I knew if it was poo, I wouldn't be asking for help. hehehe. But, it was about 2 inches long. I'd say a long slimey thread would be a better description. I know they sometimes have long white poops if they've got an unhappy gut, but I've never seen them be transparent. It did break off when I was transferring her to the hospital tank. I don't know how tough a worm body would be if it was a worm, though.

[Pegasus]

Don't know why I'm doing this, as my words seem to fall on deaf ears :)

Seems you have an internal complaint called Catararrh of the intestine.

SYMPTOMS.....

Lack of appetite, loss of weight (thinness) thin slimy excretions protruding from the anal.

CAUSE......

Consumation of old or decaying food. (possibly the rotting guppy corpses)

CURE....

Fast the fish for a couple of days, and if you feed only feed lightly with dried foods until the nomal feces appear.

Bill.

[Ira]

Alright, I'll try that. Let you know what happens.

[Pegasus]

No promises Ira, don't know how far your fish has gone.

BTW. Is this a wind up.... it is, isn't it....??

You weren't seriously considering this were you,

Would putting a fragment of something like a dog and cat worming tablet in the tank work?

Naw.... It's gotta be a wind up :)

Besides a cat or dog weighing thousands of times heavier than your poor sick fish, just exactly what were you going to do.... Open wide fishy... Now this won't hurt a bit.... Just swallow the damn thing will you... :)

IRA... You amaze me more each day.

You know I'm not going to sleep tonight thinking about this, I'll probably be laughing half the night.

Advise for the day Ira,

Get all that rubbish you're putting in your tanks and flush it down the crapper, then sit back, read some good fishy books or the forum, and start to look after your fish as they should be looked after.

See ammendment to "CAUSE" above. This may be what caused your problem.

[Ira]

Actually, I'm totally serious about that and I've heard it in several different places. The active ingredient in dog and cat worming tablets is the same as in medicines to treat fish with worms. I'm not sure what the dosages would be or how exactly to use it. I'd assume something like take half a small tablet per 25 gallons or something, dissolve it in water then pour it in the tank. It doesn't matter what animals they're intended to be given to, it's to treat the same thing. It's an active ingredient mixed with basically a non-toxic filler. I'm not going to spend $30 in petrol and hours searching around to find $20 package labeled "For fish" when I can get the exact same thing a 5 minute drive away for $5.

All what stuff? All I add is fish food and a little squirt of a fertilizer mix(Trace elements, magnesium sulphate and chelated iron), and the fertilizer mix is NOT what was causing any of my problems. Otherwise it would have shown up maybe 6 months ago. NOT when all the plants started to rot and the tank crashed. It especially would have shown up when I was dosing the tank with at least 10 times daily what I give them now to test and make sure it wouldn't hurt the fish. Over a period of 2 months, no guppies died. Whether you think it's safe, I don't care. I'm going to use it because I think the plants could probably use a little dose of trace elements and I'm convinced that it's safe for the fish. I also haven't had any problems in either of the other TWO tanks I've been using it in for the last 3-4 months. The only things that have happened in those two tanks were a rummy nose dying and the electric blue getting some fluff because I was an idiot and didn't put a rock back right when adjusting the java fern on it and it shifted and landed on her.

[Pegasus]

I rest my case. :oops:

I'm not sure what the dosages would be or how exactly to use it. I'd assume something like take half a small tablet per 25 gallons or something

It doesn't matter what animals they're intended to be given to, it's to treat the same thing

Utter rubbish.

It especially would have shown up when I was dosing the tank with at least 10 times daily what I give them

Are you sure this didn't kill your fish??

Bye.

[Ira]

Yes, I'm sure that it didn't kill my fish. Not unless it took about 4 months after I stopped giving them the big doses to kill the OFFSPRING of the original fish.

****, I'm not arguing with you anymore.

(Obscenity) Edited by Moderator.

[ajbroome]

Ira wrote...

> The active ingredient in dog and cat worming tablets is the same

> as in medicines to treat fish with worms.

This is true, in some cases at least. I know of at least one recent

treatment of cammalanus worms using a commonly available pet

drug, made up by a vet.

You can read a POST made by Len Trigg of Hamilton to the BUZAQQ

list (a list for the Maltese Aquarium Society --- don't ask ).

See:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/buzaqq/message/37

For the record, a friend of mine who went fish collecting in West

Africa, dosed himself with DRONTAL (a pet anti-parasite drug)

when he'd be infected with some nasties in the middle of nowhere...

However, I don't beleive Iras problem with his Ancistrus is worm

related. Pleco type fish need a lot of fibre to keep things moving

through their digestive tract. I suspect there has been some upset

with the fish in question hanging in a net and/or in a container for

a few days such that it's flushing it's system. I expect that once back

in a healthy tank, with some driftwood to chew on that things will

right themselves on that front at least.

Normally I'm loathe to make diagnoses when I can't see the problem

for myself but at least I don't feel the need to berate people who are

making what seems to be an honest attempt to do well by their fish,

and learning as they go...

Andrew.

[Ira]

Human worming pills probably use Drontal, or at least a closely related drug. Just a more refined or at least tested equivalent. I've had human worming pills before, I think the dog ones might be preferable, at least they get beef or chicken flavored ones. I bet most or at least a good portion of drugs used for humans would be effective and get a similar result with fish. But, it might not be easy getting your doctor to give you a prescription for ritalin for your hyperactive Pictus.

[Caryl]

I never thought to ask Ira, until Andrew mentioned it, but you do have some driftwood in the tank don't you? Hardwood is a vital part of the bristlenose diet. They need it to digest stuff properly.

[Pegasus]

Bill said,

Don't know why I'm doing this, as my words seem to fall on deaf ears

I should have done what I intended and ignored the topic.

We can only offer what little experience we have in the hope it will help others.

Ira was advised that the problem with his cat (fish) was not worms.

Regarding dosing the tank with animal worm preperations, if Ira or anyone else feels this is good practice, then that is their opinion.

There was no need to spend $20 or so going to the LFS for medication that was suggested was not needed.

Regarding humans taking animal preperations in Darkest Africa where perhaps the nearest assistance is thousands of miles away, then this is a risk one must take.

AJ said,

but at least I don't feel the need to berate people who are

making what seems to be an honest attempt to do well by their fish,

and learning as they go...

I, as others, have offered advise to Ira many times, which is why we are here among other things. If Ira makes a post for assistance and then ignores the advise offered, then that is entirely up to Ira. I am NOT degrading or berating Ira in any way, I am just totally confused why, after losing so many fish, that Ira would even consider what he was about to do. All I can say AJ is that the original problems with Ira's tanks were man made, not some freak of nature. Fish don't die in those quantities for no reason, so obviously something happened in the process over the past months. Hopefully that problem is solved, who knows. The ingestation of decayed food (or dead fish) seems the most likely reason for the problem with the Catfish, and as Caryl pointed out, not a worm problem. Ira will decide what HE feels is best, irrespective of the advise given by any member.

Hope your bristlenose comes right Ira.

[peety]

I had gill flukes so was doing some reading on worms... found this:

"My Discus is wasting away: What should I do?

Salt them, but remove plants first.

If that does not help, then consider the possibility that flukes, Hexamita, or Cestodes are ravaging them.

For flukes and Cestodes (worms) , the treatment will be the same: Praziquantel, trade name, Droncit, is available in a cat and dog form from the Vet in your neighborhood.

You simply add 2-3 ppm to the tank you are deworming/defluking. As an aside, this will eliminate Flukes very handily.

2-3 parts per million is had by calculating the gallons in your system into Liters, then you figure out how many milligrams per liter you need. Let's do an example:

10 gallon system, let's say.

10 gallons x 3.785 equals 37 liters in that 10 gallon system.

Let's shoot for 2 ppm. 2 ppm is the same thing as 2 mg/Liter. So we need 2 mg per liter, and there are 37 liters to treat. 2 x 37 is about 80 milligrams. Dog Droncit is 34 mg each. So we need 2 1/2 tabs to treat our 10 gallon tank.

You only need to treat once, for worms. But you should treat again in a week for flukes."

The American sites all praise prazi, and use it in pref to other meds. I called bayer and found Droncit is available thru vets but couldn't find any who stocked it (All vets here use Drontal which has other meds specific to cats or dogs ) . I used standard fluke tabs in the end but have ordered some Droncit (just in case). The cost is pretty high but apparently you can dose really highn with no ill effects and guaranteed results.

(It dissolves the skin of the worm and it just melts inside the fish )

No vet I talked to had heard of this use but lots of sites in US recommend it, Discus, Koi ...even on US Fisheries site... (trout I think)

peety

[Wayne]

hmm lots of confusion n misinformation here guys.....

Caryl said:

From what I have read, I don't think your fish has worms. If it did, they would be red or brown and hanging 5 - 10mm out of the anus.

i agree Caryl....probably not camallanus. these r quite characteristic. tetras n livebearers mayb more susceptible to it, but new spp r always emerging.

peety said:

"My Discus is wasting away: What should I do?

Salt them, but remove plants first.

If that does not help, then consider the possibility that flukes, Hexamita, or Cestodes are ravaging them.

well, the main differentials( possible causes) for thready/mucoid cast-like faeces( or diarrhoea!) in fish = hexamita, worms and TB.

flukes and cestodes(tapeworms) are also 'worms' if u like, but they tend to b rare in fish reared in aquariums. these worms have complex life-cycles requiring birds, predatory fish, isopods etc to thrive. u'll need a pond or wild enviro for them to persist. however, we occasionally see the larval forms of these worms in fish....caught from the wild etc......heard of eyefluke, grubbs etc?

nematodes or roundworms r different. these include camallanus n capillaria. the adult worms can thrive in the intestine/rectum of the fish n produce diarrhoea.

hexamita is a protozoa n yes, it might b the cause.

some cases of TB can produce a chronic diarrhoea plus illthrift etc....but heavy worm burdens can give the same picture.

Drontal contains praziquantal. this drug kills cestodes n trematodes(flukes)....in fish...2 potential problems---1)dissolving the product...i havn't tried it, but u'll have to dissolve the tablet/powder before it does anything. lots of factors will affect the absorption of the drug into the fish....drontal tablets r probably not as suitable as say commercial anti-tapeworm drenches used in sheep/horse......these have praziquantel in LIQUID form, and will probably b better absorbed by fish.

2) so what if u kill the tapeworms n flukes?? the fish probably has roundworms instead....praziquantel is useless against these.

however, drontal also contains pyrantel and febantel.....these should b effective against roundworms....no guarantee though, very little work has been done on the drugs against fish roundworms.

and remember, any drug is a potential poison.

catfish can b more sensitive to certain drugs.

your best bet Ira is to improve environmental conditions. siphon poo/organic debri.....do water changes....and feed a nutritious diet.

If it continues to detoriate, or loose body condition etc, then consider medication. i would pick

1) tetramisole. most petshops with birds will stock this....a dewormer for birds--blue solution...it is in liquid form, has its concentration clearly labelled. levamisole/tetramisole is possibly the most effective drug against roundworms in fish. 1-2 mg per L for 24 hours in a hospital tank is generally recommended.

2) if it still doesn't improve, i would switch to metronidazole/flagyl...this is an antibiotic used by GPs n vets against anerobic bacteria n protozoan infections.....u'll have to get a prescription though... it's for hexamita infections.

3) TB??? it's best to cull the fish. antibiotics against fish TB should b reserved for human use....

obviously, the "right" way to go about this case would b to collect a faecal sample for analysis.....capillarial eggs r highly characteristic. a high egg count and respond to treatment confirms the diagnosis. 'excessive' hexamita organisms in the faeces will change our treatment plan, n we'll use flagyl first instead of tetramisole........sampling from other tankmates is a good idea too

[Warren]

I think its just an upset guts too.

If it was cammalanus, there would be multiple red worms hanging out the fishes butt, all just a bit fatter that hairs. Just for your information, the most effective treatment for cammalanus worms is with levamisole. It is the active ingredient in cattle drench. I have used this before. I got a 1 litre bottle of non-mineralised cattle drench and dosed the tank at 15ppm levamisole. Within 1 hour, worms were dropping out of the fishes butts like crazy. 24 hours later, worms all gone. After a 50% water change and lots of activated carbon in the filter, the levamisole was pretty much gone. There was no recurrence of the worms either so it must have killed any eggs (if there were any). Levamisole is quite hard on the fish, but the treatment is short (only 24 hours). You can tell when there is levamisole in your tank as it has quite a distingtive and strong smell. You can also tell when the carbon has done its job, yeah, you got it - no smell.

[Ira]

Just a note, the fish has been happy and healthy for the six months since I started this thread. Must have just been a bad tummy.