phoenix44 Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 you just have to take a good debate and make it personal don't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave+Amy Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 haha wow intense reading! Where are these serverums? Pics? I know dogs aren't the best example for selective breeding due to breed-prone genetic faults cateracts, bad hips, bad elbows, under bite and over bite...a mutt is probably better in health than a pedigree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 I know dogs aren't the best example for selective breeding due to breed-prone genetic faults cateracts, bad hips, bad elbows, under bite and over bite...a mutt is probably better in health than a pedigree they are probably one of the best examples for humams striving to achieve a standard set for confirmation and the mighty dollar there are so many factors to consider that they miss the fact of what is best for the dog afghans were a beautiful dog originally bred to hunt gazelles and hare nowadays they are one of the scattiest dogs i know, maybe the result of too much inbreeding and striving for a look and forgetting the personality i breed mongrels for some of the reasons you have stated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanjury Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 you just have to take a good debate and make it personal don't you? No intention of making it personal just the views you have and the things you say would lead to problems. I can just see you doing what you believe to be the right thing going through the suppliers lists.. One day buying a Aulonocara stuartgranti (peacock) and then waiting months for another supplier to bring another "unrelated" one in with the same name and buying it, completely unaware there are many many fish called Aulonocara stuartgranti may varients many of which differ immensely. And there is every possibility that the Aulonocara stuartgranti you have brought aren't even that and could be another hybrid species or different species altogether. Check here for a full list http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/c ... .php?cat=3, technically (and probably by all your books) you have done a great thing, but you have just created a hybrid and not done either of the lines any favours. These are the things you have to consider before you bag anyone and say they are doing the wrong thing for inbreeding. Dogs are a problem also especially here I think the proper breeders do some sort of attitude screening, check bloodlines and should go hip checks etc.. But yeah I agree (and dog breeders will hate me for this) our mongrel dogs so far have been hardy as and seem alot more intelligent that friends "pure bred dogs". Of course some dogs are naturally stupid some smart and some breeders differ so this is not scientific at all. Dave + amy do a search on trademe for red severum photo is the beauty, another of my pet hates I have yet to show up and buy a fish that actually looks like a photo someone has pinched off the net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave+Amy Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 they are probably one of the best examples for humams striving to achieve a standard set for confirmation and the mighty dollar there are so many factors to consider that they miss the fact of what is best for the dog afghans were a beautiful dog originally bred to hunt gazelles and hare nowadays they are one of the scattiest dogs i know, maybe the result of too much inbreeding and striving for a look and forgetting the personality i breed mongrels for some of the reasons you have stated So true!...my little mutt (PekeXJap Chin) has an underbite and is most likely going to get cateracts (was on eye drops for a while) as well as a palate that needs to be surgically shortened so she can breathe probably, I could take the Big Yellow un-named chain petshop to the courts since I wasn't told of all her medical conditions and I paid $1500 for her not to count about $2000 of vet bills over the short 2 years I've had her...BUT I still love the toe rag to pieces :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix44 Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 ryan everything I have ever learned about genetics, starting from school, to university, to now has taught me that inbreeding any species leads to complications with negative connotations. it limits the gene pool. the genes become very similar and as a result all of those in question can suffer from the same weaknesses, just as they can be as good as each other. what im trying to say is that line breeding them may just take the pure fish further away from the natural populations. I do not believe it is right to sell a hybrid as a species that it is not. however i dont think it is wrong to sell it at all. when i see a fish that i like i buy it. it doesnt matter that its a hybrid (like those steel blue apistos)... even i was slightly upset when i found out that my "borellii" were infact not. now if i were to sell you a fish for example and i know you have intentions to breed the fish; you bet im going to tell you if its a hybrid cause i know the ramifications of mixing 2 different species. now natural hybridising occurs in nature too, but this is not the case with regards to the severum. if you arent going to breed the fish, and they are, like many of mine going into a display tank- then all im looking for is the perfect looking fish. i dont care if its elder brother is also its father. i will not breed it - it is there to look good, and as long as it does that I am happy. it seems there is so much conflicting information in this case, that perhaps here we should just agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldogod Posted March 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 they are probably one of the best examples for humams striving to achieve a standard set for confirmation and the mighty dollar there are so many factors to consider that they miss the fact of what is best for the dog afghans were a beautiful dog originally bred to hunt gazelles and hare nowadays they are one of the scattiest dogs i know, maybe the result of too much inbreeding and striving for a look and forgetting the personality i breed mongrels for some of the reasons you have stated British bulldogs are good example, so many people who claim to breed for the love of dogs and to better the breed yet they breed for looks, to win titles at shows and get big bucks for pups.Health is terrible with them and that is what should be addressed. Hers pics of my red shouldered sev and a red spotted sev, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon1990 Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 So Why did davids rotkeil(sp?) go to 'him'(to be hybridised) instead of bulldogod that has another one? :-? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave+Amy Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 the red spotted sev is gorgeous! Are these extremely hard to breed and raise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 So Why did davids rotkeil(sp?) go to 'him'(to be hybridised) instead of bulldogod that has another one? :-? that is a question only davidr can answer british bulldogs are good example, so many people who claim to breed for the love of dogs and to better the breed yet they breed for looks, to win titles at shows and get big bucks for pups.Health is terrible with them and that is what should be addressed.: yes bulldogod the bulldog today is a different animal to the one i knew as a kid love the severum pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 So Why did davids rotkeil(sp?) go to 'him'(to be hybridised) instead of bulldogod that has another one? :-? You'll learn about that in health class.... two girls can't make babies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave+Amy Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 LMAO...they've done it with mice DavidR! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon1990 Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 You'll learn about that in health class.... two girls can't make babies! Didnt think about that :oops: :oops: :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 David R where are you? He loves these arguments/disscussions and he knows the Severum well. A question: under natural influences(Without Human intervention) where natural selection, survival of the strongest are the determining factors of the direction a species takes, would the whole mutation quotient be that much of a influence particularly in shortened time frames, ie thousands of years as opposed to millions. I think this thread is more to do with the likelyhood of a Gold and Rotkeil Severum interbreeding naturally (naturally hybridising) because that is what the offspring here-hybrids. I think we are elevating the situation to heights and rhetoric unbefitting the simple fact of an individual once again misbreeding, misleading, and missing the point, all for a poultry sum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firenzenz Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Ahh! There's David up there- I skipped a page by mistake. David- What chance that these will breed back to Rotkeil colouration and will continue to do so. Will the Gold be recessive and/or dominated? Will this effect the offspring in terms of just getting dirty fish. Does anyone know this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Ahh! There's David up there- I skipped a page by mistake. David- What chance that these will breed back to Rotkeil colouration and will continue to do so. Will the Gold be recessive and/or dominated? Will this effect the offspring in terms of just getting dirty fish. Does anyone know this? just some thoghts 1/2 the young will carry the recessive gene but none should show it visually by selectively breeding the young males back to the mother you will increase the rotkiel part of the gene makeup in resulting fry and dimish the % of fish carrying the recessive gene the gold will be recessive but with selectibe breeding you should be able to create gold rotkiels in future fenerations until you have bred the resultant fry you wont know know how the genes are expressed in the fish if you breed 2 fish together carrying the recessive gene you will get some golden fry the best option is to breed fry back to the porebred parent some future breedings of fry will produce "dirty fish" to do this properly requires a lot of tanks and some dedication or a few different people going in the same direction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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