Tail disintegrating on side (not end!)

[Stella]

Great now the banded, who had NO INFECTION on it, has STRESSED itself to DEATH.

THIS SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Imsmith, the photos are all of the same fish. Who is currently sitting quietly under a rock NOT stressing itself to death. ARGH!!!!

The other fish have smaller, much less aggressive-looking areas on other fins. But those area are growing nonetheless.

I have had these fish for two years and this is the first real disease they have had.

[FishBait]

Hi Stella

Sorry I was not on to this sooner but I have just recieved the emails from Dianne.

It looks like you have a bacterial infection which is inside the tissues of the finage.

These infections cannot be treated with the topical medications but need an internal dosage of antibiotics. The treatments you have used are for external problems.

If the fish are still feeding you can use an oral dosage, otherwise you need to inject. You will need to get your antibiotics from a vet and dont be shy on doing water changes to keep the system clean.

good luck!

Give me a call if I can help any further.

cheers

Kerry

[TM]

What is the temp of the tank?

[Stella]

Hi Kerry,

Thanks for your input. Makes sense about it being internal.

Only the fish I have put the photos of has the internal infection. The others have it more as a fin-rot type thing, where it starts on the edge and nibbles away at the fin.

Tonight the remaing four (including the first one) are still alive and behaving much like they were when I first put them in the Furan.

I really can't afford a vet right now, still unemployed.... May be possible to do some begging with some people I know at Massey, could be handy that this is a threatened species... will see. Not good now that it is the weekend.

Do you know what antibiotic I need? Would help sounding like i know what I am talking about.

Probably a really really really long stretch though.

Fish aren't really feeding. Haven't injected a fish before. Or anything else for that matter. But been a dental assistant so not squeamish about needles.

So if the infection is affecting the fin edges on the other fish, do you think the Furan will work, as it is working externally? I am guessing the internal infection got in through a nip or something, then the extra bioload started the other infections...?

Thanks again.

[Stella]

Well the most affected fish died in the night. That leaves three.

Feeling kinda bland about it. I think I have invested so much stress that I have no more stress to give. Thoroughly tired of it all.

I now have two fish with medium-sized rotted areas in one tank and one fish with a small area or two in another tank. (And a dead 18cm fat fish in another tank. What the hell am I going to do with the body?! Not worth specimen-jarring)

The two fish seem quite perky. If the Furan clears up their infections they should be fine.

The solo fish looks a bit dodgy. Its mucus coat is really thick in a few places and slight clouding over an eye (presumably mucus?). It generally isn't looking terribly happy.

Will continue with the treatment and hope whatever happens, it gets on and happens quickly.

[ryanjury]

Sorry to hear about your fish..

I have some Doxycycline here that is an antibiotic unsure if it will work on your fish but your welcome to have a couple of tabs for free if you can get out and get it.. Personally because its for bacterial infections I think it would be worth a go, the tabs I have are 100mg so going by the below info one should do 40 gallons..

Doxycycline Hyclate 50 mg. Capsules

Broad spectrum antibiotic derived from Oxtetracycline, it works on most bacterial infections. It does not become inactivated by calcium, iron or other heavy metals. One treatment is all that is generally required. 1 capsule per 20 gallons of water.

[alanmin4304]

The problem is to know which antibiotic to use. You can realy only do that by culturing the bacteria and then testing for antibiotic resistence (by which time the fish is dead of course). Furan is easily obtainable and is fairly broad spectrum. It is one of those painfull lessons we learn in fish keeping. The only way things are learned is to try things out and if they work that is great and if they don't at least we learn. Thinking of you and wishing you luck.

[Stella]

Three dead fish.

Two live fish.

Two of the dead fish were the ones I thought were not really affected!

Could have been meds of course. Too much for them.

Too much for me.

Who knows what will happen with other two. Might survive.

Thanks everyone for your help and support.

Sometimes these things happen. Alan is right, when it doesn't work at least we learn.

Still completely sucks at the time.... and every time I think of it in the future.

[livingart]

sad to see stella

at least you have added to your knowledge base with keeping natives

and will be able to recognise this early next time and know how to treat it

a bad experience but one you have learnt from

and will be able to help others with later on

[MarkLB]

I'm feeling pretty bad for you Stella, I know it's breaking your heart, it would mine too.

Keep your chin up and remember that you're not the first to have a disaster hit them and you surely won't be the last.

[Stella]

Right, another kokopu down, one to go.

I wish I could use all the colourful expletives here that I really really want to use right now.

[Zev]

Dang.... not good news at all.

I sent you a parcel, perhaps I should have put a large amount of chocolate in for packaging, instead of polystyrene chips....

Drop us a line if you want to have a rant if it would make you feel better.

[livingart]

i lost a 35cm giant when i first started natives

i forgot to put a lid back on

had him for 18 months would handfeed

when i found him in the morning i vowed i would not keep natives again

or be responsible for another death

still keeping them 25 years later :oops:

[lmsmith]

Aw Stella, I'm so sorry for you. I wish there was something we could do to help out. We're thinking of you.

[HaNs]

Stella, are you able to do a autopsy and see how their livers look?

Just wondering if there is any fat build ups in the fish due to feeding beef heart. I dont think its related, but it may be worth a look.

[alanmin4304]

Sounds more like an internal bacterial infection but knowing which antibiotic to use is the problem.

[livingart]

yes bacterial, dealt with this a few years back with a big giant that had been in a hinaki for a week

took scrapings in the end and had it analysed

too late to save fish though

[HaNs]

Sounds more like an internal bacterial infection but knowing which antibiotic to use is the problem.

Im not saying the beef did it. Its just a oportunity to see if the beef has done anything to them internally, dispel the rumors or prove them to be correct

[Stella]

Thanks so much for all the support, guys. It really matters to know that there are people out there who Get It.

I pretty much spent yesterday in bed feeling wracked with guilt and sadness. These fish were my Absolute Pride and Joy. Got up at 4:30 when I got hungry.... Sounds pathetic I know, but it was just too much.

There is still one left. It seems quite feisty (um, like the last one that died...) but I feel it may live. It only has one area on the fins (pelvic fin) and it doesn't look active. Looks like all the manky tissue has fallen off and like it simple suffered a bite, not acute necrotising fin disintegration....

I am intrigued as to how this disease came about and would like ot understand further.

So presumably there was some sort of injury (bite?) that allowed infection into the first fish's tail. That spread into the body and killed him, I get that one.

Then do we assume that the bacteria from the tail then infected the edges of the fins of the other fish?

And do we assume that somehow the other fish got internal infections as well, or maybe it was the onslaught of medications that did it?

Thankfully I can't look back and say I should have done anything differently. As I did everything I could with the advice I had at the time. Possibly the only thing I could have done was remove the first fish that got sick, but I didn't know how serious it was going to get, and at the time it was bloody hot and it probably would have cooked in a smaller tank.

Am now in the process of doing a million waterchanges on the main tank to clear out the salt and mal/form completely. Good time to clear out the accumulated murk prior to moving (two weeks from today). A little bit worried about putting the fish back in the tank, a little like how Dave+Amy's niece's tank killed half her fish after a major waterchange stirring up murk...

HaNs, I am glad I didn't read your message when I was feeling more upset about it... Yes it would be interesting to know about the livers, no I do not feel particularly up to cutting into my pets out of curiosity.

However I do have two bodies in the freezer and I might see if one of the scientists I know feels like doing an autopsy. I don't even know what a fish liver looks like, let alone a fatty one.

[alanmin4304]

See if you can find out what the bacteria is and its antibiotic resistence. Years ago I imported goldfish because most in NZ were crook as. I was lucky and had a friend who was a microbiologist on a boring research program who was happy to do some work. He identified the bacteria and the cheapest antibiotic to get at it with. I don't know where I hid the paperwork but I think the bug was an Aeromonas and the cheapest antibiotic was Apo- sulfatrim which is a mixture of trimethoprim and sulfamethoxazole. Also known as bactrim. I have been given some 480mg tabs. Used at 2mg/litre/ and can be used for 10 days. Is generally able to be used at a much higher dose rate than many other antibiotcs. It will kill the good bugs in your filter as well---that is why it was given to me.

Many years ago a local pub had a spa pool outside and a few patrons ended up in hospital with rotting armpits and groin (areas with soft skin) because they hadn't chlorinated properly and and the spa pool was acting as a bacterial incubator with bacteria picked up on peoples feet walking accross the yard. Aeromonas is common in soil and will multiply readily if the temperature is raised. I would guess that is what you are dealing with but if you can identify the bug and cure it will be a bloody painful lesson but a lesson just the same. I put the goldfish for testing on ice in a thermos flask but you may be abnle to get a bacto swab from the infected area. They are spore formers so may resist freezing---ask your scientist.

Thinking about you.

[Stella]

EW re rotting armpits and groins!!!

Well, I still have one kokopu left....... fingers crossed and I hope I didn't just jinx it.... It still seems very active and somewhat peeved to be in a small bare tank.

The last tablet went in yesterday, so now what? Just waterchange it out? 25% at a time or more? The instructions say use carbon but I don't have any.

[alanmin4304]

Water changes will do it.

[Caper]

Still catching up on posts. So, so sorry to read this thread Stella :oops: You did everything you could for your fishy, that may not make you feel much better considering the losses you have been through BUT YOU TRIED some would have given up at the first sight of a problem. Sorry for your loss but I congratulate you (and all who tried to help) on your efforts

Caper