Ira Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 How's this look for a sump for my new tank? Obviously it's an odd size so I'd have to get it made for me. It's 1100X400X400 compared to 1220X480X380 about that an average 4 foot tank is. By my calculations the tank would be 175 liters, but with the partitions this way would only hold about 135 ,so there's either space for 40 extra liters if there's a power outage or 40 liters I should take advantage of more? Everything should be about to scale and in the right spot. Anyone see any obvious problems or any suggestions? Obviously the center section is intended to be a big refugium and the HOB skimmer can move around a bit. I'm wondering if I should cut it down to maybe 800mm wide to give me more room to put crap in the cabinet or not? Or if I should make it shorter so I could put a shelf above the sump for something like a top off container? Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevan Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Is'nt the pump area susceptible of rung dry . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 To answers Kevans question, yet it is, and its by design. Better to burn out a pump then have saltwater all over the house. Ira - Same advice I gave Chimera. Having a refugium is all well and good, just be wary of light near the skimmer. Light makes everything dirty and covered in Algae. I would reccomed having the light as far away from all your other equipment as possilbe (heaters, bags, skimmer, return pump). 1 way around it is to use tall baffles with holes cut into it. don't use glass use black perspecs. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevan Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 May be I'm missing something but with that design if power failed it would flood and if you did not top up it would run dry. Is'nt it better to move the heater and skimmer into one smal area with constant level and have the bulk of the sump for the pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Kevan If the power failed, the overflow box ensures that the tank doesn't drain (which is why you use an overflow box and not just a pipe). If you have a look at the diagram, the skimmer (and I suspect the heaters) will exist in the larger portion of the sump, ensuring that they can never be dry. Only the return pump can run dry, and as I stated its by design, its unavoidable. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 The design seems to have major problems. What happens when the water is lost due to avaporation? The pump chamber does not hold a lot of water. Will the pump run dry? Or do you have a very good top up system in place to overcome this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 on the good side... if you see lots of air bubbles in your tank you know its overdue for a topup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatix Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 the left hand chamber looks like you intend to place bio balls in it ? why dont you re design it so the skimmer is the first thing in contact with new tank water to remove most of the organics , put less load on the bio sysgtem, get less nitrates. Just a thought . Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interfecus Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 With a water level alarm in the pump section you could get around the risk there. Spend about $5 to $10 and you'll have insurance against the loss of a pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Evaporation should be handled by pump/timer or float valve. The smaller the final conpartment, the more accurate the dosing and measurement can be. My sump has a very small compartment for the return pump, perhapps 20L max, and its been running for over 18 months without problem. And i am setting up again soon and will do exactly the same thing, because there is no better way to do it. The pump chamber should be of a size that in the vent of the return pipe being blocked, that it doesn't over flow the tank. Bioballs. No thanks. Placement of the skimmer is up to the individual. I belive that the skimmer should be before the refugium, so as not to kill the life that lives in it. But having the skimmer skim all water before it hits the refugium can prevent food etc from fueling the life in there. I think there are a few opnions, and they all have their meirts. Alois - If the design is so bad, how would you fix it? How about offering some constructive feedback insted of just critising it. From what I have seen of your sump and feed system its far more likley to fail that the diagram pictured from Ira. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 MARK, I think you should check your white spot?? It’s blurring your vision. I was not Criticising at all, just making an observation and trying to find out if Ira had a top up system in place , which would make the sump design work better, Bioballs, no thanks. How is that comment constructive. ??? Some bioballs might be good as it would help break up all the bubbles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Ira - it will work fine. Dont need to go too overboard on the baffles, so long as it reduces bubbles, allows heaters to remain submerged, accounts for any backflow and use a pump that by design, can run dry, you are covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Did some calculations on the amount of water in the pump compartment. Its about 10L, so should last about 2-3 days before topping up. You could make it slightly bigger or get an external pump which would mean there would be much more water in the last compartment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anal fin Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 I am in the process of designing a sump myself i have drawn a nice little picture and everything, very pleased with my efforts and i would like to show you guys, also to get your input but cant seem to work out how i can show you my litte picture as Ira has done... please help.. P.S nice picture and sump Ira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 you need to upload the pic onto the Internet somewhere, then specify the URL (http address) when posting, highlight the full URL then click the 'Img' button from the toolbar. A small recommendation:- once you've done your sump pic, look at it and think "do i need that baffle", "whats is it I am trying to achieve?!". I have seen too many pic's lately that are more complex than they need to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 it is a well known fact that bioballs create nitrates! shame the shops don't know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Chimera, you may eat your words when you get micro bubbles casued from you new sump because you didn't put a baffle in! Most designs have 3 or 4. I suspect that is because any less causes problems and any more is overkill. I have 3 without problems, when I had none, I had mega problems. Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 it is a well known fact that bioballs create nitrates! shame the shops don't know I don’t think that a dozen or two bio balls are going to cause nitrates. If the bio balls are in the water all they are going to do is stop the amount of bubbles in the sump. Bio balls can cause nitrates if they are used as a wet/dry filter as the bacteria grows really quick when exposed to air and becomes really efficient in breaking down ammonia thus causing nitrates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted August 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Nope, no bio balls, dogmatix. Those circles are actually supposed to be heaters, but I didn't label them. I think I should be able to squeeze the skimmer over to the left more so it's in the first compartment. I'm not worried about light getting into the skimmer, the side of the skimmer that would be towards the lights is opaque, the clear side would be facing away from the sump into the door of the cabinet. The collection cup is clear on the lightward side, but that's no big deal. Yeah, it does make it a slight risk of the pump running dry, but as long as I check the water level every couple days it should be fine. Once it's running we'll see how much I need to top off, that'll be the deciding factor on whether my next purchase is DI and a topoff or a sea swirl. That's part of why I'm wondering if I should make the sump a bit smaller, so I've got room for that kinda thing in the cabinet. I forgot to put in a section to force the water through some kind of media, but I don't know if I really need that or not. Would just throwing it in the pump section or first section be good enough? I was thinking mostly just for phosban or similar. But then, I was thinking I might just buy a phosban reactor. Maybe I'll try to talk my parents in the US intoo sending me that for my birthday because I don't want to pay $90 shipping on a $50 reactor and $100 of phosban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anal fin Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 I thought i would let you guys have a look at it and tell me how far i have gone wrong, I havent put on the size as im unsure just how but this sucker is going to be yet. I keep reading about everyone saying if the power should go out that sumps have a problem of over flowing. If you look at the marine tank part and see how some of my water i have made red by my caculations if the displacement of that amount of water is less than the amount of water my sump can hold how can it overflow ?? Feel free to tell me what i should change and what i maybe have not thought of, thats the whole idea of you guys looking at it.... All comments welcome good and bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted August 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Hmmm, I got annoyed that I couldn't find any prices for float switches on the internet. Too much free time at work, I guess. Had a look at Dick Smith's website. I could DIY one to run of the mains for $25ish. Microswitch ($3), some wires ($5), plugs ($15) a hanger (Free), some duct tape(free) and a coke bottle (free) for a float. Should work great! have it running a small pump I've already got...hehehe. Run it off the same timer as the lights so it only doses from a small container at night... Pies will be thinking, "GHETTO!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted August 9, 2004 Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Analfin. That looks pretty good to me. one thing you should do is the second (left hand) refugium divider (the one that shares the space with the return pump) should be lower than the left hand one. But its not a biggie. Other than that very similar to Iras, looks good to me. Good luck Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted August 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Got in touch with Peter at Port Nicholson Glass. Looks like the sump is only going to be $130ish. Woohoo! I was expecting more like twice that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chimera Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 some very good sump designs here: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/melevsreef/links.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Forgot to tell you guys what happened. I knew I'd have to take the center of 3 front braces out to fit the sump in. So I try...And it doesn't fit. No problem, I'll just remove another one it should fit fine, the piece of polystyrene cut to the tank's size fits fine. Try to put the sump in...It doesn't fit. After getting pissed off and frustrated for a few minutes I measured the sump, it was 50mm longer than it was supposed to be. Still will fit IN the stand, just won't be able to get it in without removing all 3 front supports. So, I go and try to remove the third and...It looks like maybe the previous owner tried to drill out the screws and gave up, end result, Can't remove that one. Had to get a friend to give me a hand lifting the tank off the stand soI could try dropping the sump in through the top...Doesn't fit. After hitting my head on the wall for a few minutes I managed to rotate a piece that runs along the front from left to right around(Rotating the third front support in the process) and give me just enough room to drop the sump in. So, now I've got about an inch of free space on each side of the sump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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