suphew Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 When did this become personal and abusive?? :evil: I'm quite happy for some one to show me if I have made an error and will learn from it. Everything I have said is based on what I have seen working with my own eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Hey, it's not abusive, I'm simply stating you seem to know more than someone who can do the calculations (even if they were stuffed-up the first time...) and has many years experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted April 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Hmm, I guess I'll give it a go this weekend then. First I'll try jumping up and down on the middle to level it a bit more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Sorry but a statement like "I give up, you seem know everything" felt pretty personal and abusive, if that wasn't the case, I take back what I said. Of course I said that before you edited your post. BTW I'm a computer engineer, and qualified electronic's engineer, so, yeah have done a little maths. Have also been keeping fish for round 30 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 The statement was made because you would not listen and it seemed futile to try to help - giving up was the only option. If you looked at the figures and made adjustments of factors of 2,5 or 10 you would still see the glass was under too much stress. The base figures are simply a place to start - assumptions to get things going. Fairly standard what-if scenarios... Sorry if you've taken it personally, was not the intention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doch Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 what thinkness tube have you used frr the tank stand ? you will get distortion when welded should be in a jig when that is done to contain it on a flat surface my stand is 50x25 heavy duty steel tube Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted April 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Its 30x30 I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 The statement was made because you would not listen and it seemed futile to try to help No I wouldn't accept something that was obviously incorrect as you have admitted. Your calculations are now based on less that 10% of the tank being supported, this isn't "simply a place to start- assumptions to get things going" it is (IMO) an very low figure to use, but I am happy to be corrected if this isn't the case. If I hadn't posted the figure of 900kg per square millimeter would still be standing. I'm sorry that I incorrectly took it personally and accept that this wasn't your intention. Statements like the above made me feel like it was personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted April 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 FFS, do you guys see that little button with "PM" on it? How about taking your ego's there to do battle instead of clogging my thread. :roll: Don't let it get this far! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Apologies David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 This is nothing to do with ego, it's about making sure a tank does not broken. The calculations were based on less than 1% surface area having support on the stand in question. Even with poly, there would be only 4 points of contact where the 4 middle legs join the frame. When the middle legs were welded in it bent the top part of the frame away from supporting the tank. As both the tank and frame are hard and will not flex enough to distribute the load over any more than just the 4 points, almost all the load is on these points or distributed near them with the help of the poly having some crush. After the poly is crushed or deformed most of the weight is still on the 4 load bearing points. Given the actual contact area bearing the load is very small compared to the surface area of the bottom of the tank, 1% was considered a reasonable starting point. Even if it was 10% the load on the glass is still too high. The tank is 1500 x 700mm so 1050000mm². 1% = 10500mm² or 102 x 102mm of total contact area. There may be a little more than 100 x 100mm of contact area but the pressure will not be even and still mostly concentrated near the 4 middle legs. 10% gives 105000mm² or 324 x 324mm contact area. It's not possible this much area is available given the size of the frame material and elasticity of the material it's made from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Yes, apologies if it's out of hand - just don't want your tank to break... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted April 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Yeah I know, sometimes you've just got to agree to disagree. Your argument is based on maths and experience, sulphews is based on experience. I do really appreciate the input and different ideas from both of you as this thing is doing my head in, I just didn't it to turn into a who's right and who's wrong thing. Peace! P.S feel free to make me a moderator any time.... :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 I can understand what's going on in your head. Even with all the calcs to support a tank or stand being good there's always something you might have overlooked or done wrong or even assembly errors etc. The first time you fill your system you have this dreaded feeling of what if... Then for days you worry if it's going to be ok. Calcs and experience don't change this, I get it every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted April 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Yeah, I had similar nerves when setting up my old 5'x2x'2', which was also on a wooden floor on a home-made wooden stand!! I really want this tank set up, but I know it needs to be done right. If I ever go for something bigger I think it will be steel or timber frame with plywood and one big viewing window in the front... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanmin4304 Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Sometimes people get away with things. I had a friend with an import business and lots of tanks. many of which were of a good size. His stands were made of galvanised steel pipe and the tanks sat on that with a small strip of poly under the area of contact. The tanks were therefore only supprted front and back by a narrow support area. I freaked when I saw it and told him so. He used this system for a few years without any problems I heard of. There is no way I would have done that. It comes down sometimes to how much risk you want to take. My stands were hot dipped galvanised with 25mm of timber for shelving and 12mm of polystyrene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted April 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 The poly I was given with the tank is only about 8-10mm thick, should I be hunting for something thicker this weekend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingart Posted April 11, 2008 Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 The poly I was given with the tank is only about 8-10mm thick, should I be hunting for something thicker this weekend? IMO thicker stuff would spread the load more if you are putting on the bare steel if on a thick piece of ply that is level the 10mm should suffice, my opinion only Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted April 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2008 Was going to use 15mm ply with the liquid nails under it. Not planning on having any massive heavy rocks in there, just a couple of pieces of wood and maybe some medium sized river rocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewY Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 Guess one good thing is content insurance (atleast according to the guy who sold me my package) covers the tank and the fishies inside should they die.... (something positive to ballance out all the problems that could go wrong) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richms Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 Guess one good thing is content insurance (atleast according to the guy who sold me my package) covers the tank and the fishies inside should they die.... (something positive to ballance out all the problems that could go wrong) I have never heard of one that will cover the fish, what policy do you have that does? You may want to read the contract because it wouldn't be the first time that an insurance salesman has lied to get their commission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markoshark Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 I've never heard of livestock (which is what fish is) being covered under insurance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewY Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 Yeah I didnt too but when i talked to state about the risk of my tank breaking in earthquakes etc... I asked if the fishies inside would also be covered, They said that if it died cos of the tank breaking then they should be.... maybe its their ploy to get me to sign up with them, who knows, but i would still bring it up should my tank fall apart :-> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puttputt Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 I had state insurance when a FO marine tank cracked on me. Livestock was not covered, and I believe still isn't, so double check. Mind you, that was 25 odd years ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewY Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 man, that rages me how people would lie... I think I'm going to pop down and get it down on paper.... if not, I wont renew with them :-> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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