Ph and its relationship to breeding activity

[Barrie]

As the heading say

My Ph has been low(well my tanks anyway)... most tank at 6 or below.

I have raised it to 7 and straight away the interest in the "other half" has increased 10 fold... nothos, I would have thought, would have been far better off with a lower Ph

Any comment please?

[kylefish02]

Scheel's Water Chemistry

Scheel had what might be considered today some unorthodox opinions regarding water chemistry. He felt differences in salinity, or total dissolves solids matters very much, but that pH changes could be safely ignored. Given this observation was made over many decades of working with killifish it's a pervasive argument. Here are the relevent passages from Rivulins of The Old World:

Page 25

"If you move rivuline individuals from a water containing much dissolved mineral matter to water containing little such matter, these individuals probably soon will be swimming at he surface and they soon die. If you inspect the gills under a microscope you will realize the reason for this. You will find the gills completely ruiined. The many brittle cells of the gills burst shortly after the individuals bhad been placed in water of low salinity, because of the large difference in osmostic pressures. If the fishes are moved from water containing very little dissolved minerals to water containing much matter nothing will usually happen.

Page 26

I spawn my non-annual species in rather small tanks (about one gallon of water) and the tanks contain nothing but a mop and the water. Females are separated from males for at least one week, while both sexes are heavily fed. Only one female is placed with the male in the tank, because one female may eat eggs when the other is spawning. As my two types of water have similar salinities I can move the individuals right in and right out of one type of water without any harm. Differences in pH values, even from 5.0 to 8.0 have not produced any harm when individuals suddenly are moved from one type of water to the other

For what it's worth I havn't measured pH in 25 years - I ignore it and only pay attention to total dissolved solids and temperature.

If you want to read the "Scheel letters" - correspondance between Scheel and various aquarists, have a look at at http://new.killi.net/articles/by_Author/Scheel/

New rulings on signatures...

Please read the Guidelines.

Mod

Bill.

[alanmin4304]

You may be on to it. I set up 3 trios of choc australe in rainwater with boiled peat for over a week and saw no activity and no eggs. I cleaned out half the water and replaced with tap water and added 3 trios of nigerianus. Have been getting lots of eggs each day from all three trios (3 days now). Have yet to ascertain fertility rates but that sure is a better start. I too had thought soft acid water and peat would be soft music and candlelight.

[Barrie]

I certianly would never argue with Scheel but I find it interesting that the activity increases so much.

Stu mentioned that some peat I had sent him didnt have much in the way of eggs (Korthause) and the peat I took last monday was the same (well to these old eyes anyway). The Ph was at 6 or lower and the fish had little interest but since then I have had oyster shell in an external filter running through the tank and the Ph is 7 so I think I will put peat in again this weekend and see what the egg rate is.

I also raised the Ph on the Striatum and again the fish are a lot more active. I wont put a mop in yet as the females are too young but in a week or two after checking the Ph again, I will try them as well.

They, as most people are finding, are not interested in breeding either. I put this down to heat but may well have to rethink

I will keep you posted

[caserole]

The problem with the information Kylefish put up is it's OLD, not that old is no good, but.....

Most experienced fish keepers will know about gill shock(goes by other names) page 25 is a perfect example of this > do it at your peril > well your fishes peril!!.

Have we not heard lots of peoples fish spawning just after a big water change >> slight drop in temp with a change in water chemistry, maybe PH too ???

Alanmin, I would like to point out that the F. Nigerianus (all it's morphs and populations > same apply's to gardneri and all it's morphs and populations)are much more prolific and seem to have harder casings on their eggs then the A. australe are and do.

So to explain the poor result of the Australe on conditions once changing things and having success with a F. nigerianus is not right > sorry

Especially when I consider your A. australe spawning set up to just right!!!

It's strange that Australe like it cool as well isn't it !>??

P.s

I know I can be blunt - please forgive me, :oops:

I'm not having a go at anyone > Barrie and Kylefish are friends.

I don't really know Alanmin >

However I do know you are an asset to the club and becoming even more so as we are starting to get a swell of interest in killies from Christchurch and you are in the right place to help them with your experience!, you are the third longest member of the club( David just rejoined ) - that specks for it's self.

[alanmin4304]

The point I was trying to make was that you can go by all the theory and think you have it right but if they don't want to lay eggs then you haven't got it right. The thing to do then is to change things until you do get it right. I usually start with the most simple set up--tap water, then get more complicated as I have to. I thought rainwater and peat would be great but they didn't. What works this week may not work next week so it pays to be flexible.

[caserole]

:oops:

Missed your point Alanmin, to true.

[kylefish02]

lol i didnt actaully even read it i thought it may have answered barries question sorry. I think harder ph does increase activity aswell my australes used to go nuts in ph of 7.2 but real slow at like 6.8 nothos were the same and the nothos would not look happy at lower ph. remember in the wild theres no peat its mud and i think were korthausae are found on korthausae island? the ph is like 7.8.Btw stu im gonna join the killi club this week coming sorry for the wait but ive been short on money.

cheers kyle

[Barrie]

if I could talk to the animals, think what fun it'll be, talking to a killi in killanese

seen that movie

Just wish they (the killis) would tell us what they want eh

Ive met Stu once (plus next weekend )and never met Alan but all the help you all give must mean that your good blokes

You have both helped me and hopefully I can return the favours in the future

[caserole]

Kyle,

I don't think the korthausae we have comes from the island off Tanzania that we can not type due to automatic editing of band words on this sit.

But as we don't know for sure, we can not call it the suspected strain.

Many of the rain forest killies we keep are used to acidic tannins( from leaves ) in their natural waters, maybe the ph does go up during the wet season, so a neutral Ph is better for them to breed in.

But the Notho's from mainland Africa can have so much crap in there pools I would expect ( but don't know, although as I type I recall an article on collecting N.Eggersi where the ph was very low compared to a near by river ) the water would get very acidic.

You have plenty of experience Barrie and have proved it, who are you kidding :lol:

Alanmin is right though, ""the same thing does not always work""

I wonder Barrie if the way you wet your peat compared to others gives you a lower then normal Ph for water with a pot of peat in it?

[Barrie]

mmm

could well be

[alanmin4304]

I wasn't joking with my coments on a previous posting (might have been with an Ausie accent). I have previously had success breeding various killies using teabags instead of peat in the water, and it was going to be my next trick if that one didn't work. Oak leaves have worked in the past also and they both might be related to the amount of dissolved solids---might even add a bit of salt ---done that before too.

[caserole]

May be Barrie you should boil some, place it in a fresh tank( or a container ) > do the same with what you usually do for a week and test the Ph and compare the 2.

Alanmin,

Barrie and I had sent emails back and forth a week or 2 before you posted that, so I didn't comment as it is quite a valid method.

In Asian country's they also use tea bags to reduce stress from the overly hot days.

So for the A. australe I would think it an excellent idea( could try it with striatum too ), maybe throw in an extra spawning mop or 2 as the peat is a spawning medium.

Good thinking Alanmin, I think I will try that with my striatum and see if I can get more eggs, although I'm not doing to bad with them

[alanmin4304]

The australe are still a challenge in progress. I haven't had much luck with eggs for a while so still have to figure that one. The only way is to keep changing the rules till you win the game.

[caserole]

Temperatures really can be a problem with them as they do like it cool, even no heater if the house is heated.

18C is not a problem for them, I had some over winter once with no heater and they got COLD, but still bred in the spring.

We have had a very hot summer this year, so maybe you should give them a miss until late autumn or even winter when tank temps are more controllable.

[Barrie]

All this is interesting as I have Australe gold coming out my ears (unusual look I know) and even the chocs are doing well although not anywhere as well as the golds... My tanks are often up to 27 through the day

[alanmin4304]

I have my breeding tanks in a room in the cooler part of the house and heated with an undertank heat blanket controlled by an accurate electronic thermostat which reads the temperature as well. The compartment that has the thermostat probe remains at 23deg and the others are controlled by raising or lowering the depth of the water in that compartment. I also have an accurate digital thermometer which I can check with. I will try dropping the temperature a bit but will also try to up the dissolved solids a bit and see what happens. My nigerianus are slowing up a bit and due for a rest.

[caserole]

I really surprised your having such success with them Barrie as I had terrible trouble with them if the temp was above 25C.

I used to breed them on peat, just scatter it in the tank add a trio or more depending on size of tank - feed water fleas or mozzy wrigglers only to cut down on pollution - after 10-14 days remove the adults drain peat in a net store in bag for another 14 days depending on temp but no more then 21 days, then re-wet and hay presto = fry! :lol:

[Adrienne]

As one who has no experience with killies could it be the high humidity that Auckland is still experiencing that is giving Barrie so many killies compared to everyone else.

As a relative newcomer to Auckland - now in my 11th year - I still find it very humid and hot during the day compared to what Christchurch and I imagine the lower north island is getting.

[Barrie]

I have great success with Australe but nothing with the Striatum but you may well be right. The humid conditions keep the night time temps up so I must check the room temp in the morning

[alanmin4304]

The water in Christchurch is pretty pure compared to Auckland I would think. And that may be part of the problem. I have never found breeding good numbers of australe easy, even 30 years ago so the prefered conditions for each species are obviously different and it is a matter of finding what that is. I will try a few different conditions and see if that changes things any.

[Discusguru]

The water in Christchurch is pretty pure compared to Auckland I would think. And that may be part of the problem. I have never found breeding good numbers of australe easy, even 30 years ago so the prefered conditions for each species are obviously different and it is a matter of finding what that is. I will try a few different conditions and see if that changes things any.

Do you want me to send you a few buckets of good old Auckland Water Al? :bounce: :bounce:

ron

[alanmin4304]

Might be the only way to get them going, or send wok the animal trainer. If they stopped jumping they might have more energy for the other.

[Barrie]

Ive had my Gardneri Jos Platau seperate for the last week and put the males back in with the females yesterday morning. I would normally have expected eggs last night but not one. I tested the Ph and it was down to 6 again so Ive had the external filter with oyster shell in it going over night. I will take it off this morning (Ph should be at 7 by now) and it will be interesting to see if I get eggs tonight.

[alanmin4304]

I think you are on to it---keep changing the rules till you win the race. Will send eggs today (only 10 in peat)