lduncan Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Well almost, test this morning at around 1ppm! 5 days ago tested at 9ppm. I'm very happy with the results of dosing sugar. I don't plan on dosing it regularly however. I believe the source of my nirate problem was my temperature problems a couple of months ago, as the tank had been running for almost a year with no detectable nitrates. Now that that has been corrected, hopefully this has helped to stabalize some of the bacteria populations. I case anyone else is considering dosing sugar here is what I dosed: Wednesday: 1 teaspoon sugar for my whole tank (180g) Thursday: Noticable bacteria bloom in water coloumn, only when looking end on through 6 feet of water. Skimmer working overtime, best to skim "wetter" during this stage, as the resulting bacteria die off when food source (nirates, and aparently phosphates) could foul water. Friday: 1 teaspoon sugar for my whole tank. Tested at 6-7ppm. Sunday: Water had become crystal clear again. Today: Tested at 1ppm. Side effects, none as yet, but will keep a close eye on things. Hopefully this was the kick start the tank needed to start denitrifying again, and I wont have to dose sugar again, but it looks like this could be the closest thing to a quick fix in reefing, I for one didn't think it would work this fast. I think the key is to really get the skimmer to work over the three or four days. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 Interesting. Brown sugar or white sugar? It is possilbe that your nitrates spiked after your 'heating' incident because of dieoff, thus some re-cycling happened and the sugar thing is just a coninsidence? Especially as you had 0 nitrates prior to the heat problem? Still if it worked or you think it worked then thats what its all about. Are you planing on dosing again? Ohhh and how about some more tank & coral photos? Cheers Pieman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted March 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Pies, I think that is what happened. The temp spike must have killed off bacteria. I don't think that the sugar is just coincidence, i don't think that the bacteria colonies could re-establish that quickly without an added nutrient, such as sugar. This is my reason for insisting that skimming wetter is necessary during this process, the bacteria can multipy and live much longer with the sugar added, once the sugar is used up, what happens to the bacteria? A large proportion of it dies, leaving large enough population to continue nitrate reduction in response to the tank bioload. So this dying bacteria must be skimmed out to avoid repolluting the water. I just used normal white sugar. Will get some pics up later. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reef Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 i was just about to try putting sugar in my tank when i thought i will put vodka in my tank and see if this would work as most of the germans are dosing it. started on my small 100L tank. nitrate is about 80 ppm and phostphates 3ppm, very high. i put in 5ml of vodka and will increase dosage by 1 ml per day. i will post results every two days. my reef tank readings today were not to bad at all. nitraye is 5ppm and phostphates zero, yep 0 which is fantastic, salifert phostphate killer sure works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Reef - Most of the Germans are doing it? I doubt it. Piemania Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 And if it doesn't work, you can still do a water change and get drunk... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caryl Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 I'm sure the fish would be happy after the vodka whether it worked or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicks Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 What brand are you using. as brands in this hobby are important!! or are you selling a Aquanet vodka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted March 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 I just had a thought, Germans are known for their quality reefing equipment. They are also famous for schnapps... it could be a good candidate, a mix of both ethanol and sugar... the best of both worlds! Never heard of a German vodka yet though, 42 Below seems to be all the rage at the moment, and it's NZ made, but you can't beat Grey Goose for a top shelf vodka. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted March 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Just an update, tested NO3 this morning and they are completely undetectable, not even a hint of pink in the test water! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackJackJack Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 check this out: http://www.masa.asn.au/rtaw/showflat.ph ... o=&fpart=1 an interesting post about the vodka method being same as the zeovit system alot of people pay alot for. also a note, it points out your refugium may crash if using the vodka method... although it gives no reasons. interesting to see the origional reef central post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 Interesting that they guy in that article claims your refugium will crash. I wounder what he means by that? For me my Refugium is just the same as my tank with different lights. Why would the refugium crash and everything else be OK? Sounds strange, unless he means the microalgae will crash if being used which is different to a refugium from my perspective. I would offer a word of warning, until someone like Randy Homes Farley, Eric Bourneman or Bob Fenner get in on the act and offer some more scientific advice, I would be cautious of the addition of vodka. This thread started with Layton using sugar, not vodka, claiming the same results, however the reason for vodka is the way its distilled with carbon and has nothing to do with sugar. I am very tempted to try Zeovit out simply as a method to reduce po4 and no4 & no3. Its not that expensive and its a bit more tried, true and tested. However if it turns out that Vodka is as good or better than the Zeovit system then I will most likley convert I have a few bottles of Vodka in the cupboard and I own a part share in a still, so maybee I will make some special stuff up BEWARE. There are many people out to debunk products to as they are always looking for cheap options, from you post JackJackJack thats what this guy is saying. Be very interested to see how this one plays out. If the 'Vodka method' has been around for so long, how come no-ones tanks look as good as those running Zeovit systems? Pieman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 Pies, i think that is what they mean when they say your refugium will crash, because of the low nutrients (PO4 and NO3) many macro algaes can not survive. If the point of a refugium is nutrient export, then there goes your refugium, but many people run them for other reasons, such as providing pods a place where they can reproduce without fear of predation. I also remember reading a thread on RC in which Randy Homes Farley was participating, where he stated that he would favour the use of sugar over vodka, from the context he spoke it sounded like the method worked. (that's why I tried it) The reason why sugar and vodka can be used interchangably is because they are chemically similar to each other, sugar is an aldhyde, while ethanol (active ingredient in vodka) is an alcohol. Sugar is the raw ingredient which is fermented into alcohol by both bacterial and enzyme action. The reason vodka works has nothing to do with the process in which it is made, you could buy commercially produced ethanol and it would work. Now the Zeovit system is based exactly on this same principle. The difference is the carbon based food (whether is is an aldehyde, alcohol or a cocktail of other organic compounds, who knows.) has been specifically selected to feed the strains of bacteria which feed on nirtate and phosphate. The zeovit zeolite forms a large surface area on which the bacteria can colonise. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 Yeah I think thats what he means by refugium, but then its not really a refugium. He should say your algal scrubber or calurpa export system will crash, but not your refugium. Hence my question or more accuratly observation. I would be interested in reading that Randy Homes Farley post, the only one I have seen it where he shows the chemical makeup of the carbon in Vodka with no reference to sugar. The Zeovit system is still a bit of a mystry to me but why does the Zeovit system use Zeolite + other (Zeofood, Zeobak, Zeostart)? Why not just a bottle of 'remarked' vodka or even better a few cubes of sugar? Why all the drama with Zeolite, and why do you need to replace the zeolite? I was under the impression that the Zeolite absorbed the po4 hence the necessity to remove and replave it over time? Or is this just a sham? Also many reefers are having success with corals like goniopora and helofungi (which I would love!) under Zeovit systems, that other are not (unless feeding lots of plankton). Is this the same deal with the vodka/sugar method? Vodka. Layton, you say ethanol will do the same as vodka. What about other liquor? Beer (it has c02 in it, so you could run it through some media first and get your Ca up at the same time . But seriously why vodka? Why not white rum? Or like you say, ethonol? Burbon? etc etc etc. Have the Zeovit people confirmed this to be true about their product, or is it just speculation? And finally from my last post. Why are the corals in the Zeovit systems looking so good, do the Vodka/sugar systems look the same? Or does the Zeovit system do more than just the removal for P04/n03/n04? Piemania Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I'll see if I can find the post by Randy. I think the zeolite does aid in the removal of PO4 in the same way phosphate absorbers do (probably not as efficiently though). Like i said above the the zeovit system includes a specially selected or maybe even a mixture of different carbon based food source, which specifically targets the strains of bacteria which use phosphate and nitrate. The reason why people can support leathers, xenia, goniopora and the like is that the tank is fed with zeofood which contains amino acids and vitamins. Remember when people talk about requiring nutrient poor systems to keep acros colours, they are reffering to NO3 and PO4 levels, not necessarily food levels. The reason fo vodka, i think is that it is more available than pure ethanol, and is probably the most pure out of all the spirits available. Dark spirits are probably also avoided for the high levels of congeners, which are toxic, and one of causes of a hangover. There maybe another reason, but that is what I think. Well, well see whether the vodka/sugar systems look as good. I've also just got some zeovit, but I might hold off adding it for a month just to see how my corals colour up after the sugar experiment. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted March 7, 2004 Report Share Posted March 7, 2004 I would hold off! I for one would be VERY interested to see how things work out. Remeber it takes months though, well the Zeovit system can take up to 9 months to show results, so I assume the vodka/Sugar method is the same or similar. I agree with what you say about goniopora but the not sure about the Zeofood. You only feed this during the initial 14 day start up period. After that, its just added (by the drop) to control colour. I think this food is for the bacterria not the coral, not enough of it is added to benifit the coral. The Salifert coral food does contained vitamins and ameno acids for sure but I don't think thats what is in the Zeofood, but could be wrong. The white spirit vs. dark spirit thing is a myth. Belive me you can get hangovers on both. Its the alchol thats a problem and it doesn't discriminate on colour Often the colour comes from barrels of oak etc, so yeah it makes sense not to add these to your tank, joking around more than anything. I would like to see Randys thread, i have looked around but couldn't find it, but he does post a lot. I too have some zeovit/zeofood/zeobak sitting in the fridge and am very close to trying it. Reef was using it and singing its prasises for a while but not sure where he is at with it now, Reef? I would like to get a small helofungi and goniopora to try once i start with the zeovit system (if?). Also off thread a little. We need to find a source of plankton (live) that we can feed our corals. Any thoughts on where to get it from? Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetskisteve Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 PLEASE dont get reef started Nicks is working in the plankton thing And oh boy i agree on the hangover theory as vodka used to be my drink of choice............pre wife & kid :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 If you don't get a hangover from drinking vodka then I put it to you that you simply just ain't drinking enough. I am very interested in the plankton thing. Anything I can do to help just ask. Pieola. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted March 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 OK, like I said the congeners are only one of the causes of a hangover, dehydration is another! I for one know the powers of white spirits in causing hangovers, my drink of choice, Long Island, has most of the main white spirits and can produce a massive hangover if you don't drink a lot of water as well. I suppose fish don't need to worry too much about dehydration, unless they live in pies tank Jk. I've never really looked to deep into plankton, but I might just do some research. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted March 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Hey Pies, I found a RC thread which you may be interested in, http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=261404 Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies Posted March 8, 2004 Report Share Posted March 8, 2004 Yeah I have seen that one. In fact this may be the thread that started my skeptisim. Several people who have done it, all with varing results. Also interesting that RHF has tried it and dismissed it. However I am still interested to see what eventuates. What will win? Sugar? Vodka? Zeovit? None? All? Interesting. Pies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZEOvitANZ Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I know quite alot of Germans, but none are using vodka. Vodka is old technology and has been proven not to work. Seriataporas are one of the corals that have died off in an experiment using vodka. Acroporas soon follow. I don't know why everone thinks zeovit is vodka or vinegar based. Probably the smell. The inventor of zeovit has said many times this is a preservative to stop the zeofood going off. Imagine that, a simple explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZEOvitANZ Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 When using the zeovit system you won't need a refugium so you won't have to worry about it crashing. Also when i look in my zeovit filter, there are plenty of copepods, another reason for not using a refugium. Its all pretty simple, maybe this is a reason people can't believe it works. I would like to know where iduncan got his zeovit from as i can't remember selling to someone in Christchurch ?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I'm not saying that the zeovit system is vodka/vinegar based, just that the general chemistry/biology behind it is similar. That is a specialised organic (carbon based) food feeding nirtrate and phosphate reducing bacteria. As I understand it zeofood's smell is actually mainly due to the highly unsaturated fatty acids (HUFA) which have a very distinctive smell, unlike either vodka or vinegar. As far as vodka having been proven not to work, do you have any evidence for this? Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZEOvitANZ Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I will dig up some evidence and post later. In regards to the highly unsaturated fatt acids, i have a bottle of Selcon that i use for breeding fish. This is full of Hufa's but dosn't smell the same. Thomas Pohl who owns zeovit in germany won't even tell me whats in the zeofood but say's its not vodka or vinegar. He is keeping quite about it as he has the patent on the product and wants to stop people copying it. Regards, Brendan. Zeovitnz/australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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